Such an interesting statement when you stare at it all by itself.

Is that really a definition of love?

Hi WPG,

It's been a while since I've posted to you....

I see you're still missing the one ingredient necessary to demonstrate that you've changed....

"Radical Honesty"

Just like in the beginning you're still reverting to trickle truths....

I'm sorry, but trickle truth is deception in it's most manipulative form.

I was really hoping by the two year mark that you would see this character defect for what it's been. But instead, you still want to protect yourself by clinging on to it as a self defense tool.

Please stop dancing around the obvious.

This as never been a, "He needs to $hit or get off the pot". It's always been about your willingness to actually change the lack of RH that got you into this mess to start with!

<2x4 over>

That being said....


When you're ready to place RH into your life, it can be as simple as;

DH,
I'm acutely aware of the pain my adultery causes you. If you want a divorce, then go file for one, however, please refrain from bringing it up any more if you're not filing . Two years of hearing about it is long enough. Your get-out-of-jail free card has expired, and it's time for us to work together as a married couple and a family.

Your Wife,
WPG

That�s quite a stretch. You must be just warming up.

To keep it relevant, what I mean is, WPG�s BH is no less inscrutable than you or I. Certain posters have been second guessing him, attributing thoughts and actions to him and otherwise implying he is no longer any good as an H for some time now. But in fact none of us, not even us other BS, know the agony he has gone through in detail. Our best guesser is still guessing.

How about hold our opinions on him until such time as he works with, oh for example, Dr H hisself about his brokenness and reports back here?

Actually, I understand Dr H does not personally see very many if any clients any more. Just radio spots these days. Maybe we can convince WPG�s BH to call in. Make him decide everything on the spot and in public. We certainly appear to need him to satisfy all our own timelines.

I�m thinking she was not married. Just another run-of-the-mill SOW. Which means, supporting my earlier conjecture, the adulterous WH suffered no consequence whatsoever. You are aware only the female caught in adultery was stoned, right? The man faced no charges or punishment. His BW could not even divorce him unless he agreed. That�s still the case even today in several cultures.

In a very real way, WS do not actually have to atone to their BS. Well, to be precise, becoming the spouse they were always supposed to be and had promised to be in the first place is defined as atonement by MB. That, plus BS are commanded to forgive no matter what or else they have as big or maybe an even bigger sin than adultery against their eternal account makes me think.

And the more I think about it, the more I see no serious downside to being a WH. Not even MB attaches serious consequence to adultery. Command your BS�s forgiveness on pain of their even worse sin and then just start doing what you were supposed to have been doing in your marriage all along. All boils down to sin all you want and hope you have a moment to make a final act of contrition on your death bed. The in-between is all gravy.

Speaking of gravy, I�m doing all the cooking tomorrow. So I have to get to the store. Have a nice holiday everyone. Even WS.

I still wish someone had a genuine answer to my earlier question: I don�t want any kind of payment from the adulterers. I cancel all debt. They owe me nothing. I want nothing from them. Is that forgiveness enough?

eta: a modicum of clarity

From my understanding of Deuteromony 22 & Leviticus 20, Both the man and the woman were stoned to death for adultery. <shrug>Dunno!

But as far as, "where was the man?", I've just seen that question raised by everyone, except Jesus... He didn't seem concerned with anything except the hardened hearts of the Israelite people that were about to stone the woman....

Like you, I still like to think about the verse and it's implications. I try to draw no conclusions about the text, other than the fact that no one there was willing to throw a stone, which demonstrated that no one in the crowd was without sin....




In my opinion, you make some valid points, but you really don't expect anyone to agree with you about "all" of this, do you?




I'm planning to cook tomorrow too.... Together with my beautiful wife and kids.... I hope you, and everyone else have a nice holiday as well.



IMVHO, YES!

...I see no serious downside to being a WH.

I am strenuously hoping that this sociopathic statement is the result of your reaching for the absurdity of the extreme in your zeal to make a point.

Otherwise, you would be discounting the "downside" of losing the self-respect that comes from integrity and honor. You'd also be downplaying the loss of dignity in knowing one's children and family would discount your worthiness and value. And most of all, your statement would infer that watching the horror and pain reflected from one's BW would carry no cost to a WH.

Yes, there may well be those creatures whose sense of self-entitlement is so strong that they suffer no "downside" from the actions of their infidelity. I think that percentage of the WH population as a whole is exceedingly small.

Aphelion,

Did you read my previous post? If not I have quoted it below. But in general I agree with:
The punishment for sin is death. The woman had sinned so she deserved to die. In carrying out this punishment none of the crowd would've been sinning. The problem comes because the act of judging brings judgment upon yourself. Jesus was the only one without sin. He was the only one that could judge and stand up under the judgment of his own actions.

Judgment is not our job. What is in our hearts is. Forgiveness is.
Yes, forgiveness is the decision to not hold a wrong over someone else, to not require (full) repayment.
I'm concerned with your idea about living in sin and then mumble a confession on your death bed. First, you don't know when your going to die. Second, for forgiveness a full change of heart is required and if your pre-planning it then it is not a change of heart but a sick attempt at manipulation.

�
Left out the other part. I love my W but enough to say goodbye "so she can be happy somewhere else" bc she sure doesn't seem to be happy with me. �She will discover too that doing what she did will not make her happy in the end either. It's a scam made up by God's alter ego. �Looks good doesn't it? �Cheap. No consequences to doing it or so it seems. �But the bill comes later. The OP is a symptom of a larger problem or disease. Poor boundaries, frustration, character flaw? �Don't know. Am no expert in this.�

And am not justifying or approving of her behavior either. Quite the opposite bc it's immoral AND just plain wrong. I want my W back. The one she used to be. Want her to be like WPG.�

�Otherwise, you would be discounting the "downside" of losing the self-respect that comes from integrity and honor. You'd also be downplaying the loss of dignity in knowing one's children and family would discount your worthiness and value.�

Yes, there is that.

�And most of all, your statement would infer that watching the horror and pain reflected from one's BW would carry no cost to a WH.�

I have not seen this in any WS IRL whatsoever. And rarely, rarely, rarely on here. They all have their justifications, some more and some less. A ONS (or nearly so) immediately rued and confessed and atoned for on their own is one thing. Adultery that lasts years is entirely another. These generally have no regrets except as it ends up affecting themselves.

�Yes, there may well be those creatures whose sense of self-entitlement is so strong that they suffer no "downside" from the actions of their infidelity. I think that percentage of the WH population as a whole is exceedingly small.�

And I am entirely convinced of the polar opposite.


�The punishment for sin is death.�

No, the punishment for birth is death.

�The woman had sinned so she deserved to die.�

But the man did not deserve to die? Remember where they were and when they were.


�I'm concerned with your idea about living in sin and then mumble a confession on your death bed. First, you don't know when your going to die. Second, for forgiveness a full change of heart is required and if your pre-planning it then it is not a change of heart but a sick attempt at manipulation.�

Yes, there is this too. How about I just don�t let myself think about it until I am staring into the abyss? Like the vast majority of adulterers who show up here. Does that work? Seems to work for them.


�I want my W back. The one she used to be. Want her to be like WPG.�

See, this is what I mean. Be careful what you wish for. I wanted my wife back too. And then a year after she came back (after a 6 month very dark Plan B with written conditions and everything � MB to the letter) I changed my mind. I discovered I was probably never going to get over it no matter what she does from now on. But I did not know that until a while after she came back repentant and EN meeting and all. I have no ENs she can meet. Just like with WPG�s betrayed and broken H it�s my fault now.

It seems some of us can�t get past it. But we don�t discover until quite a while afterwards.

One of the silliest platitudes often used in early posts to BS is, �Only you know if you want to stay married.� Well sometimes we don�t know this at all. Give WPG�s BH a little credit for not knowing what he wants. No, not even this far into it. WPG may not be, and according to MB results based theory is probably not, actually meeting his ENs the way he wants them met. She in fact may not be able to meet his EN for HO ever again.

Whatcha' doin' WPG....

Merry Christmas WPG! (belated) How are you?

I just want to say that I've been reading your posts and your story truly touched my heart. You struggled so hard over this past year but your commitment to your husband and to bettering yourself is truly an inspiration i hope you and your husband work it out you seem like someone who deserves happiness and deserves the opportunity to make it up to your husband i wish you the best.

Hi all. It's me. Yeah, I kind of bugged out. Ran away from the forum. Needed a break. Unfortunately for anyone - myself included - hoping for a happy ending in the WPG & broken sitch, if you were defining "happy" as a restored & recovered M...well, I hate to burst your bubble, but...

FWIW, those of you who've told me how dishonest I was being w/broken (yes, tst, I heard you!) were absolutely right. I'd simply shut down expressing any of my thoughts and feelings to him because of my own fears of rejection, in a very similar dynamic to what was present in our pre-A M, only now with the "bonus" of an extra-added dose of tension thrown in. The last time I really opened up to him was last July, when I wrote him a letter which he later said he "sort of" read. So yesterday, I asked him:

"If [stepmom] was not moving in with [her sister], would you have come home?"

His response:

"Probably not."

OK. So now I know. Yes, there's a part of me that can't decide if I'd rather not know the truth and just continue to kid myself, thinking that I was making a difference. We had SF New Year's Eve, and afterwards I told him that it was much better than last year...that last year at this time I thought he was gone for good.

I told him that based on the date he�d requested to separate, he could file for D this week. I wouldn't contest the date of separation if that was what he wanted. I told him that I didn�t want to be his roommate, I wanted to be his wife. That I understood it was my actions that brought us to this and I would accept whatever he decided. The whole time he wouldn�t look at me, sat staring at his computer, and did not say anything else. I avoided LBs other than crying (I suspect that my crying is a LB for him after him telling me that he doubts my tears are �real,� since I cried during the time I was trickle-truthing him), but everything makes me cry, I cry at the drop of a hat, I think, even more so after Dad�s death.

And for those of you who have wondered why I've kept beating a horse that to everyone else was obviously dead, yes, I do know that MB is not "marriage at all costs." I wasn't fighting for an unhappy M. I was fighting - or at least I thought I was fighting - for the M I believed broken and I could have together. Maybe I was really fighting for the image of what I thought we could have. I believed that by fighting to bring broken home, that I was standing for my M and my family, that I was doing the right and honorable thing. I was fighting for my girls to have an intact family. And I was fighting because I love broken.

But as we all learn sooner or later, sometimes love is not enough, and sometimes no matter what, when we break something, it can never be made whole again. Can I look at myself in the mirror 5, 10 years from now and honestly say I tried everything to save our M? I don't know. People on the outside looking in have said as much, but I don't know if I'll ever truly believe it b/c after all, I am the reason our M needed saving.

I appreciate the thoughts and the support, and I think of the online friends I have here often. Many posters have come here and offered their advice, insight, wisdom, and 2X4�s and I am truly grateful. I'd be remiss if I didn't thank JL, Pep, CP, NG, HHH, Mel, CV & Grace, tst, GloveOil & TWC, jessi, Reynolds, SMM, and Mrs. V, and so many more folks I am missing, many of whom not only helped me, but posted to broken in the short time he was here. I think it is time for me to take the knowledge I have gained here and spend some time on my personal recovery, and extend my break from this thread (not necessarily the board, although I probably won't be around as much as I have been in the past), to make some decisions about my life and where it is going to go from here.

Thanks to all of you, and thanks esp. to Dr. H and Joyce for creating and maintaining a place like this.

Don't be away too long WPG, our prayers are with you.

Whatever comfort you took from this site, WPG, you brought immeasurably more heart, insight, and character to this site.

With your permission, I'll continue to pray for your desired resolution, okay?

God be with you WPG
jessi

stop in once in a while to let us know how our friend is doing..........

I'm glad to hear you were honest with your H.

Keep up that pattern, it suits the new you so much better.

BH is living home.

BH is still hurt.

BH is afraid to admit anything more then he just needs a roof over his head.

BH would of not come back if the sight of you made him that ill.

BH is back.

Back means opportunity to plan A. Show case the new and improved WPG.

Don't waste this opportunity. Opportunity is not a guarantee but it is a chance. Work it.

You're both under the same roof. It's a sin to waste even an opportunity.

Write this on a small piece of paper.

"Until your heart stops beating..."

I am personally very grateful for knowing you. You've been a blessing.

BH is with you. It takes lots of time. But you have clearly made marital progress with your opportunity. Trying to imagine your husband's state of mind, I can only use my own as comparison. Next week I will cross D-day plus one year. Every month brought new feelings. But its better today than it was yesterday. I think thst broken must feel the same. It tskes time. You have opportunity.

Please keep working.

Thank you WPG