TenaciousOne, your email was read and answered on the radio show today. Be sure to get your husband to listen with you!

Thanks Markos, we listened together last night. We discussed the show without a fight, but not without DJ's.

I agree with Dr. Harley, but my H does partially. First, our kids aren't young. So, H sees this as a parenting issue too. The conversation went something like this...

H, "I'm here maybe four hours out of the day and make up 1/5th of this family. Why should I have to clean up 75% of mess just because I'm the one who wants it clean? There's a right way and a wrong way. It's our job to teach these kids that they need to clean up after themselves. How can you tell them to do this, when you don't clean up after yourself?" We should just tell them what to do and when."

Me, "Ok, I'm not saying you have to clean it up. I prefer to ask the kids to do things, instead of demanding it. I treat them the way I want to be treated. I might say, In ten minutes, would you please pick up all your stuff out of the living room? And I don't ask them to do things I'm not willing to do myself. And if it's a difficult job, I'll do it with them.

H,"Why do we have to ask them at all? It's common sense. Put your stuff up when you're finished with it."

Me, "Some stuff yes, I agree is lying about for no good reason. But, during the day we are working on projects that are waste of time to take out and put away."

He still says his way, is the better way....for Him. I understand we have annoying habits, but his demands and DJ's have in fact demotivated us.

I personally feel we did a lousy job at family commitment and showing our kids thoughtfulness. For most of our kids' lives dad was on the computer playing games and I was wrapped up in homeschooling and parenting. I had to pick my battles. H and I were not thoughtful at all for most of this time. I was withdraw. The kids and I are thoughtless when it comes to managing our belongings, homeschool stuff, and cleaning up during the day.

Markos, I told him you would be willing to help him directly to manage his frustrations and give him tips on how to get his DS needs met without the lovebusters.

He said, he will make a thread. We pinky promised to not read each other's threads. I told him my thread title and screen name, so he won't stumble upon it.

There are several pages devoted to POJA'ing our pet situation. I emailed the Harley's and Dr H said the default position was owning no pets at all. First it was no pets in the house when he was home. Then it was no pets in the house ever, excluding my poodle. Then during our last fight he brought up not wanting to own pets at all. I give up. I think we have made a poja'd decision, then he gets mad at something the animals have done, then complains about it. Gets angry. I said, fine.... you have my permission to get rid of every animal here you don't want. That's the original default position anyway. I can't force him to want them. I can't force him to care for them. I can't force him to use time and money to manage them. If he doesn't want them, they need to go to loving homes.

Everyone here said, I will eventually be enthusiastic about not owning pets when my marriage is so amazing that I won't miss them. I can't gain at the expense of my husband.

Here's how the conversation should have gone:

H: "I'm here maybe four hours out of the day and make up 1/5th of this family. Why should I have to clean up 75% of mess just because I'm the one who wants it clean? There's a right way and a wrong way. It's our job to teach these kids that they need to clean up after themselves. How can you tell them to do this, when you don't clean up after yourself?" We should just tell them what to do and when."

You: "I am willing to discuss this when you are respectful."

End of conversation.

I told him several times he was being disrespectful. He asked, "How?" I'd explain it. He'd do it again.

I told him, I was through trying to teach him. Told him of Markos' offer. That maybe ya'll could help him approach this issue in a way that didn't lovebust me.

I'm done talking to him about this.

But, I will start "literally" cleaning up my side of the street.

And you kept talking.

I remember years ago, when markos and I were separated, I got on here one night and cried to the board how markos and I had just had a 3 hour argument, and how he had DJ'd and AO'd me over and over again.

Pepperband came onto my thread and basically said, "Why did you keep talking to him for 3 HOURS?"

That stung, but her point was so true. I should've ended the conversation the minute that he became disrespectful or angry. But I continued with it. In reality, I was trying to educate him, trying to get him to see what he was doing, and it was pointless. It just continued the argument and the hurt.

End the conversation the minute he becomes disrespectful. Just refuse to go there. If he wants to talk to you, he will have to learn how to do it respectfully -- OR his complaints will never be addressed.

Then he just can't get his requests met. Simple. With a smile on your face, you let him know you'll talk about it with him once he learns not to be disrespectful. Then, you just sweetly, kindly, be unreasonable and refuse to discuss it any more. Become a woman who behaves differently and can't see reason at all and can only be reached if he isn't disrespectful.

With a smile.

Dr. Harley tells people not to give into a spouse's self-demands. Your husband should not be rewarded for his bad behavior.

So don't do what he demanded.

Edited to add: just because it is an emotional need does not mean he can demand you clean. Let's reframe the scenario so the "wrongness" of giving in to his demands is easier to see. What if a person demanded sex from his spouse--would you advise them to have sex with that person? Of course not!

Actually, that was the last thing I said to him last night.

I brought up meeting his need for SF. That he would never tell me when to do it, or how to do it. That I meet his SF need in a way that I'm enthusiastic about it.

I said, "I asked you that we table the issue for now."

This. Yes.

The reason I would try to meet the demand, is because it didn't start out as a demand. It started out as an attempted poja solution to us being able to get in our UA time in the evenings.

We both agreed that if we (kids and me) did a better job at managing our time during the day, H and I would have our evenings open and stress free for UA and family time.

We sat down as a family and made out a beautiful schedule complete with consequences.

The kids and I tried daily to implement it. We failed daily too. I found myself angrily and frantically trying to fulfill the obligations on the schedule. I would say things like..."If ya'll don't hurry up, Daddy will be home and he will be disappointed or mad. Whichever the case. Everyday, he came home and asked about our day. What did we get done, were you on time? I dreaded him coming home and seeing that we had let him down.

I had to calm down. I couldn't run our homeschool the way he wanted it done. I got bogged down. I let the schedule slide and focused on academics only.

If something doesn't get done (either academically or chores) I don't sweat it. We just do the next thing, the next day. But, yes at 3, 4 or 5 we might be finishing school work. And the house is a mess. But, I haven't been driving myself nuts all day jumping through hoops to meet his expectations.

I can relax without checking off all the boxes. I'm fine with getting dressed and going on a date even if the house is messy. I can go outside on the patio and visit with him after work.

He says it makes him so frustrated and anxious to came in the door and we are still doing school and the house is a mess.

We tried to solve this problem without demands once. We need to try again.

Yeah you were enthusiastic but aren't any more.

The problem is you are trying to persuade him to date you instead of the other way around.

He is very attached to the idea of 'right' and 'common sense' and this is more prevalent than the idea of anyone's feelings or the relationships being hurt.

I'm not saying you should go out with the house in a mess - he would clearly have an awful time.

But he DOES need to 'brainstorm with abandon' (Paid cleaning help, reviewing the schedule etc) and he also needs to place the UA time ahead of things getting done the 'right way'.

You simply cannot PoJA against a concept of ultimate rightness and common sense - which really just happen to be his preferences.

His preferences are important but they are EQUAL to yours.

POJA leaves you with the ability to change your mind. Just like he changed his mind about the pets, you have changed your mind about the schedule.

Ya'll know that my H has a computer gaming addiction. With my agreement, he started playing a game on his phone. My requirement was "not around me." I game examples, Play it on the toilet, waiting in line, waiting for a meeting to start. Just a kill time, kind of thing.

Well, I noticed him playing while watching TV, he had it at the dining table, he even played during football practice with our son (in between plays). Well, the other night, I came into the living room, sat down to discuss some school stuff with him. While I asked my son some questions, H gets on his game. I asked him to please not do that while we are talking. He said, we weren't talking you're talking to Son. I said, you are part of this conversation. We didn't discuss it at all that night.

Yesterday, we had this text exchange....

Me, I would really like it, that in the future, you wouldn't play your game around me. Thanks.

Him, I can absolutely do that and I hope you have noticed that I have not been playing it around you (not true). To be fair, last night I was not playing it around you until you came in while I was playing it and you said "Ok this is what I came up with on the co-op." You did not ask if I was ready to talk about it. I am not trying to be contrary about this. I just want to be clear about what happened last night. I did want to talk with you about the co-op. But it is not fair to get on me about playing my game around you when I wasn't until you came in there.

Me, I concede. I didn't make myself clear before. I don't want to see you playing your game. If there is a chance that I might walk in on you playing it. Please don't. Play away from home, in the bathroom, or when I'm not at home. Please. It is a huge hit to your love bank. Obviously, this is a request. You may decline this request of course. But, it's your lovebank.

Ok, when we got to talk about this. He agreed to these terms. His requested, that I didn't text him this kind of stuff without his permission first, during work hours. He asked, that I first ask him, "Hey can we talk about something?" He then, can say yes or no. If no, I need to hold it until he can call me back.

We also talked about him posting to the board. First, he said he doesn't have the privacy at a computer to do so. Then, it was "I'm not a forum guy", "How can I trust these people" etc...

We are scheduled to talk again on Saturday about our ongoing issues. I asked him, if he is happy in our marriage? He said, he is happy, but not happy that I'm unhappy. He said, he is confused about why I'm unhappy.

I've shared with him, the same things I've shared with ya'll. I practically begged him to come to the board. I said, you all can frame our problems in a different voice. Marcos can say it in "man speak". Prisca and the other women can speak to him without the emotions. Just lay it on the line.....

What I say during on Saturday meeting? Any critique on our requests or wording?

Ya'll know that my H has a computer gaming addiction. With my agreement, he started playing a game on his phone. My requirement was "not around me." I gave examples, Play it on the toilet, waiting in line, waiting for a meeting to start. Just a kill time, kind of thing.

Well, I noticed him playing while watching TV, he had it at the dining table, he even played during football practice with our son (in between plays). Well, the other night, I came into the living room, sat down to discuss some school stuff with him. While I asked my son some questions, H gets on his game. I asked him to please not do that while we are talking. He said, we weren't talking you're talking to Son. I said, you are part of this conversation. We didn't discuss it at all that night.

Yesterday, we had this text exchange....

Me, I would really like it, that in the future, you wouldn't play your game around me. Thanks.

Him, I can absolutely do that and I hope you have noticed that I have not been playing it around you (not true). To be fair, last night I was not playing it around you until you came in while I was playing it and you said "Ok this is what I came up with on the co-op." You did not ask if I was ready to talk about it. I am not trying to be contrary about this. I just want to be clear about what happened last night. I did want to talk with you about the co-op. But it is not fair to get on me about playing my game around you when I wasn't until you came in there.

Me, I concede. I didn't make myself clear before. I don't want to see you playing your game. If there is a chance that I might walk in on you playing it. Please don't. Play away from home, in the bathroom, or when I'm not at home. Please. It is a huge hit to your love bank. Obviously, this is a request. You may decline this request of course. But, it's your lovebank.

Ok, when we got to talk about this. He agreed to these terms. He requested, that I didn't text him this kind of stuff without his permission first, during work hours. He asked, that I first ask him, "Hey can we talk about something?" He then, can say yes or no. If no, I need to hold it until he can call me back.

We also talked about him posting to the board. First, he said he doesn't have the privacy at a computer to do so. Then, it was "I'm not a forum guy", "How can I trust these people" etc...

We are scheduled to talk again on Saturday about our ongoing issues. I asked him, if he is happy in our marriage? He said, he is happy, but not happy that I'm unhappy. He said, he is confused about why I'm unhappy.

I've shared with him, the same things I've shared with ya'll. I practically begged him to come to the board. I said, you all can frame our problems in a different voice. Marcos can say it in "man speak". Prisca and the other women can speak to him without the emotions. Just lay it on the line.....

What should I say during our Saturday meeting? Any critique on our requests or wording?

I'm confused. Why did you give the drunk your permission to drink?

I have read and heard Dr H say that gaming can be a part of life, just not a substitute for time with the spouse and kids. If we can negotiate a way he can game that we both agree on, wouldn't that be ok.

Obviously, you think there should be no gaming because he is an admitted gaming addict. I don't see the harm though, if he can confine it to the boundaries that are acceptable to me.

Should I request no gaming at all? Do I need a slap up side the head?!

Yes, and yes.

An addict who wants to quit should not have limited, negotiated, POJAd, or ANY access to the source of his addiction!