I think that's pretty selfish of her. SF is an important need for you. She's telling you she's not planning to meet that need, and you shouldn't make her feel bad about it.

I think the two of you should tackle this in another way. I agree that there are times when a woman may not be 100% enthused about SF, but she should be 100% enthused about meeting your ENs.

techguy, this one is tricky. Really, really tricky.

You've got it right to tell her that she always has the right to say "no." That's a given, POJA.

And, yes, it would really suck not being able to express your feelings.

However, what first made me take notice of your post was this request from your wife (simplified):

"Then she told me not to express ... anger"

I've got to say, just on that alone, it is very reasonable for her to be asking you not to express anger! When you are angry, nothing you want to express is sane, helpful, or safe for your wife.

My guess is that she has felt that in the past your expressions of anger/disappointment have put pressure on her. Perhaps that was not your intent, but it has probably caused her to feel pressured, nonetheless. That can make what you think is just a request ... turn into a demand to which she can't say "no."

Here is what Dr. Harley wrote me last year about expressing disappointment:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2405440#Post2405440 (this link will only work for those who have access to Dr. Harley's private forum)


I have got to admit that I said "ouch" after I read that.

In fact, in the year since I first saw it, I've reread it multiple times, and still said "ouch." Was Dr. Harley nuts? Was he telling me to go against openness and honesty?

The fact is that in Marriage Builders, the Rule of Protection comes first, before the Rule of Care. If either one of you feels unsafe (Dr. Harley boils this down to demands, disrespect, and anger, but our spouse may often express it in different terms), love cannot happen.

So how do you get your needs met when you feel like you can't even express your feelings? That's why I said this was difficult! I think it would be awesome for you to write Dr. Harley on his radio show and ask for some suggestions about that. All I can say is, when I made following the Rule of Protection my highest priority, my wife immediately stepped up and started showing more willingness to meet my needs. And within that environment of protection, I've been able to make more love bank deposits, and I've seen her willingness steadily increase. It is still increasing, and I am very, very optimistic.

Are you guys scheduled to talk to Jennifer again? This is tricky enough that I would not go forward without professional help.

Your counselor was terrible. I hope you realize that already, but I wanted to say it.

Of course people who are not in love "don't feel it." The whole point of marital recovery after an affair is repairing the damage and creating an environment where people can take the actions that lead to those feelings.

Your ex-counselor probably subscribed to a philosophy that love is some magical, mystical, non-understandable feeling that may only strike once a lifetime, and then may go away, and mature people learn to stay married despite what their feelings do.

That's a popular idea, but it's not very scientific. It's the kind of thing random people on the street believe, but I expect counselors to be better educated.

Here's an article debunking that myth from Jennifer:

Romantic Love: Is it a Realistic Goal for Marriage Therapy?

This is why the Rule of Protection has to be so important in your recovery. Because the highest goal has to be restoring and sustaining the love that you have for each other. You cannot restore her love if you are not protecting her from love bank withdrawals. You can't fill a bucket with a hole in it.

When your account in your wife's love bank is full, she will "feel it." And she will then almost certainly have instincts that lead her to fulfill you, sexually. Dr. Harley says this comes on suddenly, not gradually, and men wonder if their wives suddenly took hormones or something! If I'm reading correctly, though, your wife is still in withdrawal, and so it is going to be a while before you can make a whole lot of progress making deposits.

EMERGENCY!!!!

I just messed up big time. A friend texted me asking how it was going and I accidentally sent this message to WW:
"Marriage counselor told me to give it 6 months. "

Now WW is really upset.

I scheduled a 1 on 1 session with Jennifer to discuss my mess up. W is working, otherwise we'd both attend but I'm too freaked out to wait.

Quick update. Our recovery is moving in the right direction. Jennifer helped us to see what we both did and didn't do right. Lines of communication are open.

I'm just not getting it. I know my WW is in withdrawal and its only been a couple of weeks, but how do you do this? How do you spend time with someone who knows your EMs but barely tries to meet any of them? Am I just supposed to suck it up? How long? She's hit the rock bottom of my love bank and has gotten out a pick axe to go lower. I'm far from perfect but I'm trying to check off everything on her needs list that I can possibly do. She just does the really easy, simple, and low value things on mine. At this point I don't see the point of continuing.

Is this normal? Am I supposed to just carry on for awhile? Stiff upper lip and all that?

I guess I'm just not a strong enough man to hold it together. I think I'm cracking.

This is one of the harder parts you're going to go through. It should only take a couple of weeks if you keep meeting her needs. I know its hard to want to meet someone's needs who has hurt you so bad, but you're children need you to do this. In her mind it's all about her right now and how bad she's feeling, but that will change as long as there is no contact. Stay strong and when you start to falter focus on a good memory, probably one of you having fun with your children or something like that.

You are right you are not getting it. WW is going through withdrawal.

Going through is not the same as has gone through.

Present tense verses past tense.

Internal_Pain : Thanks.

TheRoad : I know she hasn't gone through withdrawal. I stated as much. What's your point?

TR's point, which I support, is that your WW is coming out of a period in which she no longer loved you, but loved OM. She's disoriented right now in where to direct her efforts at creating loving experiences.

Getting out of the wilderness takes different times for different WWs, depending on how far they had wandered into it. Do NOT look for anthing except gradual improvement.

NeverGuessed: Thanks. I'm looking for specifics. It wasn't clear that I'm just supposed to shut up and take it. Now I at least know.

My problem is when WW asks, so what do I say? I'm not supposed to lie. But if I tell her how I feel it just pushes her away.

What's going on with the kids?
Sounds to me like their mother is too distracted with her own darkness to be 'present' for the kids.

What EXACTLY are you doing during your UA time, and what needs are you trying to meet? Where do you go?

You say the deepest truth:
"I have many regrets. My biggest regret is that I should have treated you with extraordinary care.
You are that important.
I regret that I failed to show you how special you are.
That is my goal now. What can I do for you today?"

TechGuy -
A wife desires to be adored by her husband. She longs for that. She aches for that.

When you and your wife had an open marriage, your wife's body was treated by you (and others) as a commodity. It cheapened your wife's view of herself. Not at all special. Lovemaking became screwing. Love became lust. That is cheap and demeaning treatment/behavior for any woman.

OM came along and whispered poison lies to your wife that made her feel special. When the time came for OM to stand up and proclaim his deep and abiding love for your wife, he did what any dishonorable man does ... 'the skeedaddle'. OM ran off like the cad and the coward he is.

Your wife knows she is not special to any man. Including you. THAT IS WHY SHE IS SO DEPRESSED. I really don't think this is the classic withdrawal. I think your wife is suffering from the truth that her love, her time, her body, her sexuality has been used by men. She feels cheap and without value.

Your job as her husband is to behave in ways that demonstrate you value her as a woman, you adore her as your wife, and you treasure the time you have with her.

How do you plan on doing that?

Just a quick update. I intend to respond to everyone but we are about to leave on an overnight trip to take our 2 yr old to a kids show.

My immediate plan is to focus on the family fun and not the marital situation.

I have a detailed check list of what WW's needs are and when she needs them. I've been following it to the best of my ability and I promise to continue doing this.


Thanks all. I never realized how much support I need.

Just a quick note on how I did plan A when my w's affair was going on. Please keep in mind we had not found MB at that point, my wife had told me that I change or I go...

What I did was this.

I worked on controlling AO's

I made sure every moment possible when we were not at work was filled with time between the two of us (ua time), and made sure that a significant portion of that time was spent talking about us and our future together, what that would take and the work needed.

I also made sure that I parented to the best of my ability

I made sure that we spent quality private time together, cuddling when she'd let me, encouraging her in work, praising the good things she did.

I did *not* let her walk over me. I confronted her on things she was doing wrong. I held her accountable for her actions, and words. I made sure she had parenting responsibilities that were equal to mine.

This clamped down on her having an affair anywhere but work. Due to our jobs, it was extremely difficult to monitor her at work, but I spammed her with email and texts, flirting with her, romancing her, and holding her accountable for her time. I began doing this about 2-3 weeks into their relationship and continued it for the next 8.5 months or so...

I pressed her for the truth and tried not to argue during that time, but forced her to talk.

I didn't do it perfectly, but that was my basic plan. I see it as carrot and stick now.

CV

You're not cracking.

You can go further.

Calm down and work your plan.

You might benefit from this broadcast of Marriage Builders Radio:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3324
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3325
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3326
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3327

mbtechguy, it'll be helpful if you stick to your original thread and not start new ones for your situation. That keeps your whole history together, which helps people give you better help.