Yes, I'm a practicing attorney working for the state in child advocacy. Many teachers make more than I do, because they have annual pay raises built in. Unfortunately, state employees are pariahs these days. But although I'm a great litigator, I couldn't do it as a hired gun, that's not why I became a lawyer, I actually did so specifically to do what I'm doing now. So I have a good, steady state job, decent vacation, but unfortunately the state hasn't given any pay increases in 5 years and keeps increasing costs of pension contributions, health care contributions, etc.

My husband and I had a good conversation last night, much better than what I'd feared. Because I had a long trial yesterday, I missed our marriage counseling appointment at 4pm, so he went by himself. I'll go by myself next. I actually think that's a good thing. I want him to actually express himself, where he's coming from, and where he wants to go, and he is very reluctant to do this with me around.

The conversation began when I asked him if he could commit to spending an hour a night with me, from 8:30-9:30, after the kids are asleep. I said we could work on the house a few days, play games or watch movies, anything...but not talk about our relationship. He said he wanted to talk to me after the kids went to sleep (they were already in bed, just not yet quiet, so I was a bit bemused but agreed). About a half hour later, after he got some alone computer time (I've got a keylogger, but it doesn't do screen shots, might upgrade at some point), I approached him about the conversation. We sat down and he said that he wants to start sleeping in the other house, that he needs space, and doesn't want to be around me. I said I understand how he's feeling, that I've felt some of the same things myself, and respect that that might give us some space that we need, but wanted to know what it would look like. I said that I personally need opportunities to have space, which I've been expressing for quite some time, that I never get alone time, but he gets a lot already, and that I don't want to be in a situation where my needs are even more neglected and he becomes even more detached from the family. He said he didn't know what it would look like and asked me what I would want. I don't want to bore you with the details, but we did manage to talk about it a bit and agreed to come back to the subject. He did not sleep over there last night, but on the couch. About the hour in the evening, he said he'd agree to it, at least a trial period, but that he didn't want to commit to anything because he really doesn't want to spend time around me. I asked if he could commit to doing it the next week, and he agreed. I'm really excited to spend time with him, I miss him a lot, and I'm going to make it fun and rewarding

We then talked about the weekend schedule. He told me about half his plans, and I had to ask him about some other committments he'd made at church. At first he said they weren't commitments, but then I let him know that one of the people he spoke with came and asked me why I wouldn't be there on Saturday afternoon, to which I could only reply I don't know, what's happening saturday afternoon? I told him again that we needed to plan our weekends together, especially because we have to figure out where the kids will be. I'd emailed him on Monday asking about a two hour block I wanted to do something and he had not responded, to which he said he'd thought he had, but checked his email and no, he hadn't. The conversation started getting unproductive, so we ended it, me a little reluctantly, him forcefully. Scheduling is a big deal for me because I like to know what to expect and I still don't even know what his plans really are, because he doesn't want to communicate details. For him, he feels he can just come and go when he wants, and assumes it'll be okay. He also isn't good about taking the kids into count...for instance, on Saturday, he plans to have our 4 yo son with him, work through his nap time, and be outside near a busy road working with power tools. I have very big safety concerns because he (husband) can't actually pay attention to our son (his ADD) under those circumstances, and he doesn't realize the risks. Also, missing his nap is unnecessary, if he planned around the nap, he could still get what he wants done while meeting our child's need (and he really needs his nap or his mood suffers terribly and he's already coming down with a cold...he just needs sleep). But I agreed to end the conversation, the problem I face is that when I have a lot of things I haven't been able to express, they just build up, so when we talk next time I'll be a lot more "ready" than he is and he'll be turned away.

We did end with a really nice, affectionate, close hug. I do feel he still loves me, and I know I still love him, we've just had a lot of things come between us and need to work through it all.

And this morning, he was chatty with me, seeking me out for conversation, and gave me a hug before he left.

How is this a victory? You're basically giving him your blessing to leave you? It seems to me he won this round of the battle.

For the betrayed, it feels so good just to have a conversation and the illusion of closeness with the wayward. You hugged and got another hug this morning. He's hugging you because he got exactly what he wanted!

"For him, he feels he can just come and go when he wants, and assumes it'll be okay." No wonder you have AO's and DJ's. This does not sound anything like partnership or teamwork.

I hate to say it but once you come down from the temporary high of having his attention for an hour, you're going to start to see that you are being manipulated and will probably feel very, very angry.

Well, it's all about perspective. It's certainly better for him to be sleeping in the other house, but committed to spending time with our family and me on a regular schedule, than it would be for me to move across town (as I was about to do) where we would have little to no opportunity to have contact. Living in this tiny little place is just too much...the tension never dissipates, there is no space for either of us, and there is no positive progress. It's hard to explain, I guess, that I was really at the end of my rope, becuase it DOES make me angry and I can't get past the AO and DJ (although I'm trying) with us living in 600 square feet together. Him committing to spending time with me, and feeling like I'm not going to force him, is actually a lot more inviting than the alternative of me moving out for my own sanity and him "winning" in that sense.

I'm also trying to understand his ADD and the dynamics of that.

Read Schlag's thread if you want to understand a wayward and ADD. The two are dangerous together.

Yes, I did read that thread. The thing is, my husband has not been unfaithful in that fashion. He let his guard down, started down the path, but luckily didn't get any further (only, I know, because he got caught, but still). And I have been keeping an eye on his internet usage over the years (my last marriage ended in infidelity, so I do know what to look for). I've checked his emails periodically, his facebook account, and internet history (he has never deleted internet history...until recently). So the ADD his a huge problem in our relationship, one of the pivotal ones (although something I believe we can get around), but the waywardness is not an ingrained thing.

Last night I asked him over dinner if he was going to spend some time with me tonight, and later he pulled me aside to say he was upset I'd asked that in front of the kids because it didn't give him a fair chance to answer. I apologized and pointed out he could have just answered, let's talk about it later. He agreed, and we started discussing it. He said that he doesn't want to spend more time with me, he wants to spend less, and that's the whole reason he wants to sleep in the other house. I said I'm still working on our marriage, and we need to spend time together in order to do that. He said he is still willing to work on our marriage (an improvement from "I don't know"!!), but he doesn't want to spend time with me. I asked how we would be working on our marriage, then? He said we need space. I asked what he was planning on doing in the evenings? He was vague. I asked if he was in contact with any women through facebook, the internet, by phone, any other source or way. He said no. I also asked him what I had done that hurt him so much, and if he had or would give me a chance to change whatever it was. He waffled and was vague, just said too much damage had been done. I said I can work on anything, and I'm going to, and I am sorry I've hurt you. He said no one deserved to be treated the way he was (my disrespectful judgments related to his untreated ADD did get pretty bad, it's so hard to explain what it's like living with someone who literally can't follow through with anything, who misses super obvious stuff, etc., and that and his lack of meeting my needs, I admit I had gotten pretty condescending.) I said I am sorry I treated him poorly, that I am trying to understand his ADD, and that he is also now on medication for it, and that we could both move forward from it. (I should have pointed out our son deserves our very best effort to not be traumatized.) I also said I was just asking he try this for a week, and then we talk about it, he said that was too much, and suggested every other day. I acknowledged that because he's doing something else tomorrow night (an AA meeting and dinner with a male friend, his 10 year anniversary was at the beginning of this month), that it wouldn't be every night anyway, but in the end, I relented to every other night. (I'll keep pushing for nightly, thought, and try to make every night good and make lots of lovebank deposits.) He said he doesn't want to spend time with me, that he thinks we could get our marriage back on good terms (yes!), but that he would be afraid it would be just short term, and he doesn't want to go through that. He also said he thought it would be better for me if we didn't do that (I think he has a lot of guilt, that he isn't willing to acknowledge, I have to figure out a good way to tell him I forgive everything and hope that he will forgive me as well.) He gave me a very strong hug and was almost choked up. I went in to finish getting the kids ready for bed. At nine, I came and spent exactly an hour with him, and when I said I was going back to the other house, he looked up surprised and came and gave me a hug, and said I hope you have a good night.

I know it may seem silly to be hopeful that this "separation" could be good for us, but we haven't had much contact at all in ages, and he's been completely unwilling to initiate affection for a month or two, so this is really huge. I think the fact that I'm respecting his boundaries is making a lot of lovebank deposits, but I'm making it clear that it can only be on terms that work towards our marriage, not against it. I really hope that this is what is right to do (we never know, do we?)

Any thoughts/suggestions? Also, how do I conceptualize my husband as "wayward" or otherwise, with our history? wayward light? leaning wayward?

Likely in an affair at the moment. Can you snoop or hire a PI for the day.

His actions don't seem like someone working on a marriage. Usually this means someone is on the side meeting those needs.

I can't, but I've been snooping and there is no evidence of an affair. What makes you think there is one? Just him wanting to move out? Like I said, I wanted to too, and I'm not having an affair.

I'm about to go see what he did on the computer last night.

I am starting jogging again and taking care of my needs, and it feels great. I changed the two broken lights on my minivan yesterday, something I've been asking him to do for ages and he's kept saying he'd get around to, but never did. I had to buy tools, he supposedly had them, but his stuff is soooo disorganized. I'm planning on buying my own tools again. I've had three complete sets of my own personal tools that he's taken and lost since we got together, and these are going to be just mine. It's hard to do simple tasks when you can't find the right tool, even screw drivers. Now I'll just take care of things myself. My house is clean, I'm so looking forward to it staying that way. My kids are relaxed, we have fun plans for the morning, this is all good. To be honest, I need this space as much as he says he does. That's why I wasn't opposed to it. It's sort of a modified plan A/B...Plan A just couldn't work how we were living, but I think this might.

You should be quite clear that there is no such thing as a modified Plan Anything.

Once you "modify" the MB plans, you are not using them at all. You are using your own plan, and you have no expertise with making that plan work. Dr Harley provides his expertise - years of experience successfully helping couples - for us to follow. There is Plan A and there is Plan B. There is no "modify" - only "do".

My wayward husband used to do just this. Tell me Id hurt him but couldnt tell me how. Tell me he wanted 'space'. If I agreed and backed off, I would get rewarded with hugs, too.

You're dealing with an addict. If you say to an addict. 'I'll turn my back while you shoot up instead of knocking it out of your hand' they'll hug you too.



Unfaithful is unfaithful. There is no 'wayward light' he can be just as addicted (if not more so) to an EA than to a PA. You are in the way of him getting his fix. He will knock you out of the way to get it. He needs to lie to get his fix. This is why the waffle, the vagueness, the need for space, the conversations that dont make sense - are happening. Then hugging you for agreeing not to live with him? Isnt that a bit nuts? Think about it.



Yes but you can explain why and without any waffle as to why and how your unhappiness can be fixed. He cant. Its not because he's stupid, has ADD, or is in pain, or is confused - its because he doesnt want you to know the reason.

I really hope Im wrong but there are red flags all over the place.



This doesnt really go far enough snooping wise to someone who has already been caught in this way. Any affair would be much further underground than this. You needs VARS/GPS a PI. Something he wouldnt expect.



Yes you do. You have been subjected to abusive behaviour and gaslighted for far too long. You are desperate for a break. You can have one in Plan B.

You arent going to get a break now because your mind will race thinking of him. Of how he wont answer your questions. Of how much you dont know. Of how you cant snoop now hes out of the house.

Thats why you snoop first, then expose, do plan A then Plan B. The plans must be done in order. They are like dominoes, they dont work done side by side all togehter. The correct application of one leads to success in the next stage.



This is described by Dr H as 'Plan C' or Plan Compromise and he does not recommend it as it always leads to divorce.

You are desparate for hope. You are desperate to believe. I know. Well, good things can happen further on no matter what but you must find out what is happening NOW.

A man who genuinely just wants out because he isnt having needs met, would tell you at least what he wants.

The situations needs further investigation.

Thanks, I appreciate the honesty. I think I'm so confounded myself. It doesn't make sense (why should I expect it to?) I am doing what snooping I can. He's been looking at soft porn a lot, but nothing else. Of course, this was NEVER an issue, something he previously said he disagreed with, and something I'm somewhat uncomfortable with (my ex was addicted to porn, used to view it hours a day, so it's a sore subject). I can still do about as much snooping as before, he's just across the yard, I have access to the computer, probably his cell phone from time to time.

Yes, I've been gaslighted for quite some time. I'm going to be on the radio show this next week. Hopefully that will help me figure out the best plan for this situation (A or B, I wasn't trying to suggest I had a better idea, just didn't know what to do). But I do need to preserve my mental health in order to be there for my kids. Today we had such a nice day, did some crafts, had a clean house, made cookies...all stuff I love and used to do often, and haven't had as a part of my life because of all the chaos that my husband brings. And I know my own issues play a part. I'm not looking forward to the holidays.

Oh, and I guess I should add, today he's been pretty stand offish. And his plans for the afternoon fell through, because he hadn't bothered to confirm with anyone he was hoping could meet him at church to help build the fence. He was about to change it tomorrow afternoon while on the phone with someone but I intervened...I had planned to spend tomorrow with him, working on the house, and I wasn't about to let him plan that out without me being in agreement. He got super huffy about it (although didn't try to push it with his male friend), but later made no like it was no big deal. I reminded him multiple times this week to confirm with people and make solid plans for today, but he doesn't listen to me. Lack of planning on his part does not constitute a reason to change plans on my part. Now he's out for the evening, something I'm okay with him doing, but I did ask him to stop by when he gets home to let me know he's back okay. We'll see.

You're in plan C, you see?

There is no plan for "C" at MBs, my friend.

Very happy that you are with Steve or Jennifer this week! Great job there! Best wishes..

"Now he's out for the evening"

NOT OKAY.

I'm still working Plan A. But him moving to the other house allows me to continue doing that, whereas I was about to go to Plan B, because the emotional strain was just too much.

I'm going to approach him again about the emotional needs questionaire today. I have a pretty good grasp of what lovebusters bother him the most, but not so much his emotional needs. He's feeling like he wants more social time so I am going to try on doing that with married couples we know, all as a family, as opposed to him alone.

Last night he didn't come over to let me know he got home, I gave up waiting at 10:45 and then woke up at 3 am worried (his car was home) and haven't been able to get back to sleep. It was a stupid thing for me to even vocalize to him, after all, having a spouse welcome you home is what he's choosing to give up at this point.

I took my sleepless time to reread some of the materials on the website in the overcoming infidelity section, and found the stuff about resentment pretty spot on for both of us. If we do end up going back to marriage counseling, I'm going to address that and ask that we work on both leaving the past behind. I need to do it too. I bring up too many complaints about how his ADD has affected me and how I'm upset that he never gets me presents for birthdays/holidays, or that he hasn't worked enough on the house, rather than looking forward: trying to understand his ADD, asking specifically to exchange presents this year, working on the house with him. I'm going to take my sleepy resolve and do my best today to focus forward. That's the best I can do.

You can Plan A from afar, and it is important you dont love bust. Can you still snoop though? this is vital. Without evidence and exposure your Plan A will not work. Plan A is carrot AND stick

As for the questionnaire, he wont help you much while he is wayward. But you might get some honest feedback.

Again MC is a waste of time while he is wayward. He will just use to waste time for you. You need to kill the A first.

And get some sleep! But I know how hard that is,. hugs..

I don't have any proof or belief that there is an active affair.

I did have evidence of an emotional affair this summer. Should I expose that? It was fairly short lived, based on computer records at least, and only involved contact over facebook (I've checked all phone records and she lived 500 miles away, so I'm pretty sure of this, although she was a "friend" of both of ours a few years ago so we both knew her).

I didn't expose to my husband's family or friends, but I have to people at church, not everyone, just a few people I'm closer to. The hard part is, because the contact does appear to be over, what would be the purpose of exposure? Since it is usually to end the contact, doing anything now seems like it would just be creating waves. Is there something I'm not seeing?

Do you have a keylogger on his computer? Are you actually spying and looking for evidence on an affair?

He's acting like a wayward in an active affair and he could have easily taken the affair underground when you caught him earlier. Telling you he doesn't want to spend time with you, moving out and giving you the cold shoulder are all bad signs, I'm afraid.

Can you get some spywear on his phone and computer? You need to get some real answers so that you know what you're fighting.

I know you felt relief that he moved out because you're in a difficult housing situation but I still feel like you just handed him exactly what he wants. It might be harder to get the data you need now that he's not in the same space with you.

The betrayed tends to want to believe that there's no affair. It's just too awful. And you want to believe he had enough respect for you to stop when you caught him in the EA earlier this summer. Does he respect you? Does he do what you ask him to do? It seems like he does not from what you've described.

Major, major red flag.

Yes, I have a keylogger on his computer and check his phone regularly (it is not a smart phone, and he barely knows how to send texts. He can't erase the call history and I am monitoring it all.) No signs of anything. He is looking at the porn and the crazy website about "golden uterus syndrome" and custody battles, which is where he came up with the idea that I have a personality disorder. By the websites he looks at, he firmly believes that, but he will waffle when talking to me about it. My IC and our MC see no signs of a personality disorder in me, it's part of the gaslighting he's doing now.

No, he doesn't have respect for me. I think a lot of this stemmed from him having untreated ADD and Depression, not being a financial provider, or domestic partner, or good stay at home father to our son, and me getting fed up with carrying all the weight all the time. He started turning toward a sympathetic ear, got caught, which just exacerbated his guilt in the whole situation. I think I lost respect for him, and he retaliated. And to be honest, I'm not totally sure how to get out of that situation, I'm trying to respect him, but we're so far from partners still that I still feel very burdened.