Then, you won't be liking mine much either.

au revoir

I will start again.

I offended and hurt my wife. I love her deeply but never learned how to love her and care for her the way she needed me to.

I want to know what I CAN CHANGE AND DO for her so that she starts to feel loved and important again.

Even though I feel she has played a pivotal role in not meeting the needs she promised to meet, I have given up on those and wish to find out what I can still do for her that tells her that I really do care, and I really want her to be happy,and that our marriage really is worth fighting for again. I believe she can know true love like she never has known it, and I would like to know what I can do for her to earn the chance to bring her that love. I know she will not be happy alone - not as happy as she can be if she feels true love and care. She deserves to be loved truly and deeply, and it would be my honour and privilege if it could be me who brings it to her.

Here's the way I see it (and probably your wife too).

You cheated BEFORE the marriage with prostitutes.
You've been into porn for years.
You've acted out in anger sexually.
You've treated your wife horribly for YEARS.
You TRIED to cheat with another woman and got caught.

Now all the sudden, you've seen the light! You want to make it right! If everyone will just understand that it's NOT YOUR FAULT. It was the way you were raised. It was the people in school. It was the porn you were exposed to in college. Blah, blah, blah.

You are not safe... YET.

Yes, you can change. Your wife and counselor was absolutely correct in suggesting that you separate.

You are not safe... YET.

But you won't even begin to become safe until you drop all the justifications, rationalizations and ESPECIALLY blaming your wife, the wife that you promised GOD, family and friends to protect, cherish and hold.

You are not safe... YET.

First step.

Become a safe husband.

Second step.

Work on getting your wife back.

EXACTLY.

Agreed. SH, are you interested in working the Marriage Builders program?

Hopefully you are, and if you plan to dismiss posts that you find "not helpful", you'll not find the program helpful either.

Well, gosh, still_hopefull, that was raaaather cheeky of you to deign some of the posters here as not worthy of advising an exalted personage such as yourself because their opinions diverge from the path that a devout Christian person such as you now embark upon after having been shown the way.

But, fear not, sir, after reading your acount and witnessing the repartee between your worship and my fellow denizens of these boards, I feel emboldened now to assist you upon this exciting journey back into the good graces of your fair lady.

Well, let us just dive in, shall we?!! No need for delay and what not, righto old chap?

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I was thrust into a trade and almost completely surrounded by offensive and vulgar literature and tradesman who lived and breathed porn.

Yes, I can understand how raaather difficult it must have been for you, having to labor among commoners is one thing, but having to listen to their coarse dialog about sexual matters and use of cheap and vulgar language. Well, to put it bluntly it must have been horrid, just horrid!

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Anyway, I was unfairly exposed to this rubbish (and even seriously harrassed) by tradesman and older colleagues for years in the trade.

A question for you, if you would be so kind as to clarify, the bloody berks who harassed you, were these some of the same as you endured during school, or perhaps these are others? Couldn't help wondering how these depraved individuals would have known how to harass you in this manner? Curious, what?

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You can imagine what this does to a young christian males confidence, esteem and psyche over time, and the growing sense of shame. Especially since it seems my biological nature is predisposed to these feelings - some men are more 'red-blooded' than others.

Yes, it must have been just awful indeed. Must have been instrumental in exposing your more base instincts and how you succumbed afetr repeated exposure - and that's why you felt it necessary to visit the prostitutes! Choice and free will were no match for your raging hormones.

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So here I am, a young Christian male with ranging hormones and very much a hetrosexual, but with very strong christian convictions. So I am very conflicted internally between my feelings/hormones and beliefs.

Raather curious you shold feel the need to mention this - was there ever a time when this was in doubt. Please forgive my forthright and direct questioning, but I feel it incumbent upon you to divulge all facts so that we have a true depiction of the issues.

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I can honestly say that something I have dreamed about for years has started to happen - almost over night, the sexual desires that I felt plagued by for years, the feeling of being addicted, have gone...to me, this is miraculous. But I don't see it as necessarily a divine miracle so much as what should normally happen when one finds true hope and a vision ("without vision the people perish").

Yes, I understand fully, what the peasants would call a "lightbulb moment". I'm sure that all of us here would agree that it was truly miraculous and would wonder why you would not acknowledge it as divine, after all, you ARE a Christian in good standing, old boy.

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You do not need to lecture me on my own faults, of which I am well aware. I made that clear in my previous posts. It sounds to me like you are still suffering in pain.

Until you can offer me encouragement that it is possible to see change (in both of us) then I would prefer you not post.

Good show, I guess you put her into her proper place. Cheeky woman, actually thinking she could help you!!

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I recognise there are two kinds of people here - those who have met God and know some level of forgiveness, and those who don't and are just looking for love. If you do not know God, then I don't have as much time for you.

Again, that's the spirit, you can't be taking this sort of nonsense from those who don't have the same special relationship with the Almighty as an august person such as yourself might. I haven't met God yet meself, actually was hoping to put that off for a few more years, give me time to see how my children turn out before I go off to meet my maker.

Quote

Are you hearing me now?
Do you understand me better now?
Ok...So there is also a lot of judgement here too, I see.

yes, hearing you VERY clearly, SH, as clear as a crystal sky of the deepest azure.

Looking forward immensely to your next post, as I am, sir

your most humble servant,

Americajin.

p.s don't want to be critical, but hopeful is spelled with only one L, is it not? Mayhaps you would like to correct that error in your screen name, what?

SH, everybody who posts to you on this site will be using judgement when they post. We use judgement in our daily lives. We use judgement to discern right from wrong. People who have poor or no judgement hurt people, commit crimes and ruin lives.

In my judgement, you need to drop the lofty, impatient, sneering tone you have used in several of your posts so far, and then nip round to Tesco before it shuts at 10PM and buy yourself some humility. You need to adopt humility when you go to a forum seeking advice from people who take time to post to others in trouble, and you need to develop it your dealings with your poor, wronged wife.

Do not speak to people like this:

Don't be so rude to someone who posted to help you. When you feel like it you will tell her? Just who do you think you are talking to, and who do you think you are, to talk to anyone here like that?

Don't issue orders about whom you would prefer to hear from.

You have come here having brought your marriage to its knees because of your behaviour to your wife. You need to ask and answer questions, then SHUT UP and listen while WE speak to YOU. You do not know what help can be given by a betrayed spouse (or indeed by someone who hasn't experienced an affair - like Dr Harley). If someone posts to you with bad suggestions or advice, be assured that the experienced, knowledgeable majority here will step in and put that person right, and tell you not to listen to them. Until then, as the extremely knowledgeable poster MelodyLane often says, take the cotton wool out of your ears and put it in your mouth. When it comes to answers, we'll talk and you'll listen.

Please don't come here and talk about God and try to limit responses to those here who know anything about forgiveness. You haven't yet earned your forgiveness from your wife. You were not following God's rules when you lived your life as you did, and it is hypocritical of you to invoke God now in order to dismiss those who tell you things you do not want to hear about your sin.

This is a breathtakingly arrogant statement. SH, it is not understanding of YOUR position that you need, it is understanding of YOUR WIFE's position. Are you looking for an FWH to come here and tell you that he understands your pain? Because if you are, you won't get that on MB. What you will get is FWHs who will come here and tell you that they understand your weaknesses and they are unacceptable excuses for your conduct. They will give you replies that are just as "bitter" as any that can be given to you by a BW - and if you have any desire to learn, you will see that the claim of bitterness is a defensive response by you to being made to listen and not liking what you hear.

You are the least qualified person here to "judge" yourself, since your own judgement got you into this mess. I hope that for the sake of your poor wife and boys you listen to our judgements and never again post such an arrogant, haughty response to anyone that takes time to post to you.

And you are the LEAST objective person on this thread. You are hardly a good judge of what is or isn't "constructive" since your best thinking has screwed up your marriage. So let's cut the crap and stop being so defensive to posters who are trying to help you.

You know what I hate the most about waywards? They never get to the damn point. They use alot of empty words [childhood, how they met, how everyone else is to blame for their bad behavior, blah, blah, blah] so it is almost impossible to really understand their situation. I guess they think the more smoke they blow the harder it will be to see the real fire. And this case is no different. But where you lose, my friend, is that if people don't understand your situation, they can't help you.

Anyway, I would like to help you, but I don't understand your situation because you have talked alot of crap here.

WHY did your wife want to separate? What is HER reason? I heard you say it is because you propositioned some woman, but that does not ring true. Nor is there such a thing as a "one sided EA." What actually happened and what does SHE SAY? Does she believe what you tell her?

And from the sounds of it, you are in the bad habit of watching porn and slapping the ole salami? Do I have that correct?

What do you mean you have not been sexually satisfied? In frequency? In the quality of the act? I don't want exact specifics, but need enough information to be able to understand it.

If you want people to be able to help you, then be factual and lose the superfluous crap. And most of all, be polite to those who take the time to help you. You are not entitled to get ANY help here so be grateful that posters took time and energy out of their day to try and help you. Show some damn gratitude...

Yes, that is another thing!

We BWs, who can tell you a thing or two about your wife's feelings, and also anybody else here with a modicum of common sense, know that a wife does not break up her marriage when she has two tiny sons, just like that, when she hears that her H "asked another woman for sex".

Rather than tell us about your childhood, and your teenaged years being sexually harassed, tell us what really happened with this woman and what made your wife tell you to move out.

Had she had enough of years of dealing with your sexual bad behaviour?

Ok..I will try to respond to as many points raised.
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Americajin, I know how to spell. I tried to get "Hopeful" but it was taken. This truly was a useless statement. Thanks for your ridicule and sarcasm. You sound like my father. Please do not diminish any mention of sexual harrassment in the workplace. This is a very serious issue indeed, and knowing what I know now and seeing how the laws have changed, what was done and said to me would now be punishable most likely by imprisonment. THIS IS NOT TO BE JOKED ABOUT! No they were not my schools friends, and no I am not gay. I never will be. I am repulsed by the idea.
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SugerCane - "breathtakingly arrogant statement" - misinterpreted. It was a statement of fact - sorry, I am logical/scientific by nature. I guess this is arrogant in the same way Stephen Hawking and Richard Dawkins are...and they are. "it is understanding of YOUR WIFE's position" - with this I TOTALLY AGREE. This is why I am here.
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Now, I don't mean to offend when I post, and I appreciate how much time people clearly spend on here posting advice and help etc. And I try to be objective as well - difficult under the circumstance.

Scotland, I apologise. If you feel inclined, I would welcome your feedback and I accept I may not like receiving much of it. I can take that and I deserve it and I will try to understand it. Goes for all of you.

I was trying to tell a story but feel it was missed. Perhaps my fault as I am known for being too wordy. Sorry.

"NOT MY FAULT" - no, it IS my fault. I hurt her. I do not claim in any way that I am innocent. I am guilty. I am a sinner and deserve what every sinner deserves. I hope that is clear. However, I also need what every sinner needs: freedom, forgiveness and hope. I hope that is clear too.

On HNHN and LB principles, she has never met my most important needs. Two sides to a marriage, right? I believe we are both at fault and I am led to believe I did well lasting as long as I did without my needs being met. However, I believe it was up to me to steer the boat, which I did not do for too long. And ultimately it is my fault I am here. Therefore I see it as my responsibility and my effort to do whatever is needed to fix it. I do not expect her to meet my needs at all until she feels completely satisfied that her needs have been met, and even then I am trying to just find ways to meet her needs without expectation. I am living in a paradox of hopewithout expectation - hence I am here and she is not, and I wish to save it.

Lot of YELLING going on in this forum...

Hurt people hurt people. I am hurt, and so I hurt her. It was never my intent, of course, but intent is not good enough. She maintains this, and I understand and accept that.

"dangerous" how? I am not violent, her dad was. Emotionally, I would say yes. She does not want to risk more emotional pain. I understand that totally. And I am here because I am sick of behaving this way, inflicting it on her and seeing her pain. Can you please explain more fully what you mean by "dangerous" and "safe" (referring to me not yet being safe for her)? I am not sure I have understood you.

On reflection whilst driving to friends, I thought maybe BWs really would be the best people to listen to as it is logical that you would know much better how she is feeling. So I am reading what you say past how it makes me feel initially to try and understand what you really mean.

MelodyLane, yes, you are right. The event is not her reason for separation. It is that she feels uncared for and has felt so for years. My attempt to meet my need was the cherry, the icing, the popping. We did not separate at that point and things actually started to get better for a few months after. We even made love a number of times after that. But things turned downhill again and we both got upset with each other more and more quickly.

She has an ill sister who has life threatening alergies and it has been getting progressively worse. My wife decided she wanted to goto Oz for 6 weeks to escape UK weather and be with her sister for sister time. I felt very hurt that she would consider leaving me alone for so long wihtout any hesitation and take our boys. But trying to give her what she wanted I didn't stop her, although I expressed my desire not to be apart for so long. I thought of flying over with her, coming back for work, then flying back over so I could help her with the boys on both trips. Too ���. I told her that I felt she put her sister before our marriage and was hurt by it. She was very hurt by me even saying that to her.

I asked her as nicely as I could when she asked to separate in OZ for us to get professional help, even separtely but from someone outside who could objectively listen to both sides and give unbiased advice. She said she had been seeing a cousellor but she wouldn't say who. Not account transactions that pointed to it. After she found out about my advance on the girl in 2010, she asked me to get help. I did that, and for a few months. Then I was referred to a specialist on sex therapy. Saw him for more months until it felt I wsn't getting further. He runs a sex addicts group, and felt I would benefit, but it was �12000...too much money :-(, plus it was the same general format as AA, which I have read up on (and is now well known) and I have spent time confiding in my close male friends, which is very helpful.

Again when we returned from Oz (at which point she had asked me to leave, I pleaded with her again to consider getting professional unbiased help together or seperately from the same person. Why? Because I did not feel I was able to do this without help. She refused saying "I'm right here" in tears. She finally made a consession to goto a marriage course which has a very good reputation and which is run by a prominent CofE. I felt so relieved that we could finally start working through this. The first night I felt we were in the best place and I was so thankful she suggested this as an alternative. The problem was that she didn't like it and on the way home said she wanted me to let her go.
So it feels like she did not want to try external help for us both and just wanted us to talk directly without help - I just didn't think it possible because we both felt so hurt by each other. I feel very strongly that we needed a ref, but she was just unwilling to do that.

So this is why now I am here looking for ideas of what I can do to show her I love and care for her. I am already reading through HNHN and LB, highlighting as I go, trying to workout where I went wrong and think of what I am still able to do for her. I am of course finding things that I know she did wrong too, but my desire is to be the one who makes the changes first, and win her broken heart back properly this time, like I never did the first time. She is very strong willed, like me, and has a more steel resolve than just about anyone I know. So I am now faced with the hardest task I have ever had to complete.

But I know that if I can do this, not only will she be happier, the boys will be, plus they will have seen me do it, which I hope will teach them how properly to love and care for a woman, and I hope also to be reunited.

I am glad this happened now and not later, so there is more time to work on it. And I am grateful for the boys which mean there is still a level of contact required, even if minimal for handover. At least I have some opportunity.

So anyway...getting late now and I will get back on tomorrow.

GloveOil, I will reply tomorrow to your post. 2:50am now...zzzzz

Thank you in advance.

SH, you are very dangerous to your wife. She knows this and has taken measures to protect herself.

May I point out a few things?
How did the two of you work on these? What are your most important EN's? Does she know them? DO YOU?

Murderers say that on Death Row, too. It's all words. Are you willing to walk the talk? Words mean NOTHING. ACTION creates change.

Funny, isn't it, how something you don't want to hear screams into your head?

I like to think she was protecting herself and considering her options at this point.

I can see her point.
SH, your entitlement mentality stuns me. Your wife has every reason to fear you. Not physically, but emotionally, which is as bad or worse.

What have you done to prove to her that you are going to leave the porn and the other women behind? What is your plan to heal your marriage?

Hey there,

just FYI...try really reading the posts to you on Wed.

TRUST ME, you will do yourself a huge disservice by not doing this. And, please try not to reply back to me me that you "are reading", etc. I know that you want to reply that you are hearing everything. You think you are.

Now, take some serious time and read. Read here, and then read some more.

P.S.

There is zero "yelling" here. Unless you hear that.

Read.

Oh, you are arrogant alright! I do wish you could see how you are coming across in that statement.

About the only comparison you can make between you and those two men right now is that they too have been unfaithful in their marriages.

And having made a big deal of your religious faith, your choosing to compare yourself to the well-known atheist Dawkins is amusing.

S_H,

I am a BH. Your words have an air of familiarity. It is the "but" that carries the guilt shifting.

When you say it is my fault "but" she neglected my needs too. You do not take FULL responsibility for YOUR actions. YOU did what YOU did because of poor boundaries with women. Porn, bad jokes, inappropriate behavior and your sexual request to another women are all signs of a dangerous man ( husband ).

Here is my suggestion. Learn your wife's top 4 EN. Forget about yours right now, she is not interested in them right now. Ask for her forgiveness. Be a kind father, help her when she asks for help. Send special gifts. Clean yourself up, get a hair cut, shave, dress nice, and when around her or your kids......be happy. Never say a negative word about her to anyone who may tell her. It is your responsibility to impress her, like you are courting her again. She doesn't trust you, so don't expect any overnight changes. Give yourself 6 months....it may take longer.

You screwed up. Just you. She is the victim of your selfish behavior. Stop shifting blame. It is YOU. If she can forgive you.... You have a chance to bring her into this forum and start to recover your marriage. There is no secrete words, no pill, no spell anyone here can give you to help you win her back. It is up to YOU.

Best of luck.

SH, firstly, I accept your apology. I also would like to say that it was a good and important step that you stayed here. When someone is truly willing to change, a pack of wild horses couldn't make them leave.

Now, let's get to your post.

I can't speak for AJ, but I have seen his posts in the past and I believe that what he was trying to do was show you that you really didn't want what you were claiming in your previous posts. You really didn't need to have a "yes man" posting to you.

SC has already responded, and I agree with her 100%.

Your posts being "too wordy" is not going to make me not understand you. You see, there are many who try to hide behind the word count, but your true intent still shines through. Your story still comes through loud and clear, and remember, it is a story we have already heard countless of times. And you are right, there are two types of people here, those who understand MB, and those who are learning it. I am still in the latter half, as I still have much to learn, but that doesn't mean that what I have to offer will not help. I am also know to ask the right questions that make a poster think, and sometimes, it seems heavy handed. It is just my style, and I don't apologize for it. It takes a village of varying voices to get something across sometimes.

You need to show repentance before you are going to get forgiveness around here though. And what "freedom" are you looking for? You already have hope, that is what MB and DrH's teachings are here for.


Firstly, no one "never" or "always" does something. Secondly, Your wife DID meet your ENs, at some point in your relationship, that is precisely why you married her, because she filled up your LB.

STOP giving yourself a pat on the back for "lasting" so long. Do you think it is a virtue that you took so long to stray(although having been with prostitutes before marriage and then watching porn while self-gratifying is not 'lasting')? Your actions were awful, and to diminish it by saying you "lasted so long" is a real kick in the gut. Understand that there is NO justification for what you did.

I wouldn't even suggest that she attempt to meet your needs at this point, and that should be FAR from your POV right now anyways. You need to look at YOU. Who YOU are and what YOU need to change.

I believe that you have understood me quite well about how you are dangerous for her at the moment. Emotionally, you could damage her further than you already have. Until you change enough to not cause irreparable damage to her emotionally, you are not safe, and she should stay away.

Instead of looking past what you initially feel, look at WHY YOU feel that way. Posts are made to make you look at YOUR actions.

What do you mean by this exactly? What is as nicely as you could? Did you use any LBs while doing this?

You wanted help, and that is warranted, but you also wanted to dictate the type of help and control the situation to your liking. The therapist that you saw that told you you were saintly for holding out so long did you a disservice. It fed into your own warped thoughts, and helped you tank your marriage further. Did you express these thoughts to your poor wife? How did that conversation go? I can just see it now. It makes me sad for your wife.

DJ alert. DJ alert.


And when you are finding what she has done wrong, what are you doing with that? Do you use it to justify any of your past actions?

Funny, when I was reading those same books, I only saw what I had done wrong in my marriage. I had seen how I could have improved what I had done to have a more fulfilling marriage. And this was in the days after finding out that my WH was having an affair. I was hurting over a betrayal, and I was finding things that I could have done better. Things I wished to be able to change.

Have you told your BW about this site and about the books? What did you tell her about them?


It is true that the happiest either of you can be is with each other in a safe and happy marriage. That CAN happen using MB. You need to make yourself safe for her first. You have a lot of changes to make, and if you stick it out here, you can BOTH have the marriage you deserve, but it is going to take a lot of work.

Now, there were some questions in previous posts which you still have not answered. These questions are meant to help us help you. Please take the time ti answer them now.


Please take the time to answer these questions. They may not seem important to you, and you may wonder where we are going with them, but please answer.

I have FAITH in the Marriage Builders program. I have witnessed WSs change in a dramatic way. I have hope that you will be one of those people.

Of course I was sarcastic, what you wrote really merited you being taken down a peg or two. I disagree with the rest of the group when they say you are arrogant, I may be dealing with semantics here but to me arrogant people are people who really are good at something and don�t hide it or are falsely humble about it. You aren�t arrogant, you�re simply a garden variety [censored] with insecurity issues and a hyper-inflated sense of self-worth, and I suspect that you may have an undiagnosed personality disorder. You�re like an American football player named Terrell Owens, google him at your own leisure. I doubt very much that you are going to be able to comprehend the principles of this program, or be able to implement it if it does get beyond your attitude, because it requires one to care about somebody else, something that I wonder if you are capable of doing.

At this point in your brief experience here you�ve managed to alienate almost everyone. I�ll bet that there are quite a few posters that normally would post that read your thread and didn�t bother with a futile reply. Then there are some people who really want to help you even after you�ve insulted them, which speaks to their sense of empathy and the fact that they are really the Christians here, not you. You are the type of �Christian� that sets my BS alarm ringing and is the reason why I do not participate in organized religion of any kind. The people who want to help you are really good people, in every sense of the word good, and you just shat all over them.

Shame on you, and I don�t believe the sincerity of your apology for a second.

After what you�ve written here, I am just left with so much pity for your wife, it is she that actually needs our help the most. You were probably initially shocked that she would have the temerity to stand up for herself and want to leave a demi-god such as yourself, and now you have come to the realization that she has probably just had enough of your crap and would rather find someone human without the issues that you have. You probably have no friends and now potentially no wife.

How can you ever expect to maintain a relationship of any kind if you have so much contempt for other people, when it is YOU who is actually contemptible? Why are you REALLY here? You don�t want to listen to anything anyone is telling you, are you here just to have a little twisted fun with us mere mortals? You are like Stephen Hawking? If you are a genius, then why are you here?

You want advice from a guy? Seek some professional help from a licensed psychiatric provider. That is not being sarcastic, facetious or goading, that is my best sincere advice, advice you�d be wise to heed.

Perhaps Scotland can get through to you, I wish her luck with that.