Hey, CV? I don't want to t/j the thread and make this about me, but could you pick a different font color? That green is making my eyes water.

Thankyew very much!

and I thought it was all that great advice bringing a tear to yer eyes! I can do that. lol...

CV

All of you, thank you so much for being so ready to spend time offering so much feedback, advice and experience. Clearly I struggle to shut down my defenses, but I really am grateful and I apologise to you all for being...
A lot of medicine that's hard to take but which I knew was coming.

Also, I can't read as fast as you are all collectively posting. Sorry. I appreciate also your patience. I'd like to reply to all, but not sure I'm able to at the same rate...I'll do my best.
I am also still 'post-challenged' :-)...

You are all very generous here. And the BWs most certainly have the best advice for me, albeit the most difficult. It is my responsibility to grow a pair.

I don't wish to sulk about the past. I would rather hope in the future...so I stand by my 'whatever you call it'...forum name?

sorry GO, I'm just trying to quickly work some posting mechanics out...

Off topic for a moment, can someone please tell me where to change from UBBCode to HTML? Can't find in FAQ or my Preferences...

I give up on the HTML...so...

You don't have to reply to all the posts, SH. It's not a social forum. No one expects you to reply to each post, just to read them all and learn. Reply when you are so moved. No one will get upset if you don't acknowledge their specific post. Unless you are specifically asked to respond - then good manners dictates that you respond

Thanks...

The only bit of "advice" I offer at the moment is how to get rid of the smiley-face next to your name:

Go up to the top of the forum window and look next to the words "Log out." There is a smiley-face icon there with an arrow pointing downward. Click on that arrow and select the icon you want, then log out. Should get rid of that pesky happy icon.

I hope you're not feeling abandoned here, Hopefull. You have probably worked out by now that Thursday was Thanksgiving in the USA. As far as I can tell, most people here locked themselves in their homes with their families and ate (and ate!) The number of posts to the board diminished drastically in the few days before, and it is taking the whole weekend to wind back up to its normal busy levels.

Tell us about your relationship with your wife now. How much conversation do you get with her now that you are separated? Is it all about the kids, or do you sometimes manage to talk about your marriage? Does she ever tell you how she feels about reconciling? Does she make it sounds as if she wants to divorce?

Do you think she would go on a date with you if you could arrange and pay for a babysitter? It would be a good idea to do this on a regular basis once, or better still, twice a week. You could ask her where she's like to go, but you must make all the practical arrangements and make the date happen.

Does your wife work outside the home?

I'm getting ready for work, but wanted to post this to you to think on...


Repentance unto Life: An Exegetical Discourse on II Corinthians 7:9-11


2Co 7:9-11 as it is, I rejoice, not because you were grieved, but because you were grieved into repenting. For you felt a godly grief, so that you suffered no loss through us. (10) For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death. (11) For see what earnestness this godly grief has produced in you, but also what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what longing, what zeal, what punishment! At every point you have proved yourselves innocent in the matter.




Introductory Matters:



Audience:
The opening of the letter states that it was addressed to the church in Corinth and to Christians throughout Achaia (the Roman province comprising all of Greece south of Macedonia).


Occasion:
Paul had previously written to the church in Corinth concerning several sins that the church had fallen into, moral, ecclesiastical and doctrinal. As the apostle here approaches our section in chapter 7, he begins to make mention of his previous letter to them. It appears that Paul�s letter of chastisement to the Corinthians has been taken to heart and that the Corinthians are truly repentant. It is in this context that Paul begins his discourse in verses 9-11, establishing exactly what godly grief over sin looks like.


Commentary on the text (verses 7-9):


2Co 7:7-8 and not only by his[Titus�] coming but also by the comfort with which he was comforted by you, as he told us of your longing, your mourning, your zeal for me, so that I rejoiced still more. (8) For even if I made you grieve with my letter, I do not regret it--though I did regret it, for I see that that letter grieved you, though only for a while. (9) As it is, I rejoice, not because you were grieved, but because you were grieved into repenting. For you felt a godly grief, so that you suffered no loss through us.



As Paul begins his discourse, it is clear that his attitude was, having dealt with the sinner (1 Cor 5), he sought to bring the congregation itself to a place of repentance , and though he was grieved over the need to speak to them in harsh words, he is glad for the benefits it produced. The letter, though not written in the tone and spirit Paul may have desired, nonetheless produced profitable results for its readers. In essence, Paul is saying that even though he is saddened that he had to write in the manner he did, he rejoices over the fruit that it has borne and this in itself is cause for rejoicing.

It is clear that Paul has discipline in mind as he speaks to the Corinthians. Though he was saddened by the fact he had to admonish and rebuke, he saw the necessity of it as well as the subsequent fruit. Paul�s admonition brought what he describes as, a godly grief and as such says they suffered no loss. That is, no damage was done to their souls as a result of the rebukes. There are two distinct words used by Paul in these verses which must be kept clearly in mind. The word translated as �grief� (lupee) does not, of necessity, carry it with the idea of God-centered repentance (metanoia), a change of heart direction and subsequent actions. In this way �grief� is akin to the actions of Judas Iscariot in Matthew 27:3 who changed his mind without alteration in either his heart or his actions. What Paul is rejoicing in then is what the Puritans refer to as a �true evangelical repentance�, that is a lasting repentance which is for the right reasons, the nature of which he goes on to describe in subsequent verses.

2Co 7:10-11 for godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death. (11) For see what earnestness this godly grief has produced in you, but also what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what longing, what zeal, what punishment! At every point you have proved yourselves innocent in the matter.


Paul now, after having established what true repentance is, grief borne from the working of the Holy Spirit, he now proceeds to describe what the nature of true repentance looks like. The apostle tells us that godly grief produces in the broader sense, repentance, or turning from sin, that leads to salvation. This contrast of true and false repentance is first put in the context of salvation versus death, speaking of our eternal state. It is in this context that true Christian repentance is explained. True Christian repentance is repentance without regret as the ESV states. Perhaps a better rendering of verse 10 might be this:

�For sorrow according to God accomplishes a reformation (or repentance) that saves and is irrevocable (without regret), but the grief of the world fashions (or brings) death.�

The true work of God, Paul says is one that does not bring regret, because it is not a false repentance. The apostle describes a repentance that is irrevocable because it is a God-given repentance and thus, we do not have to despair over it. The contrast with a worldly grief, that is a temporary turning from the sin, is in Paul�s understanding a matter of life and death. So true repentance then produces a desire, which may be evidenced visibly in the repentant believer. So as Paul begins his discourse in verse 11, we see the product, or fruit, of what God-given repentance brings.

Paul in verse eleven gives us seven marks of true repentance. Let�s consider each one in order:

1. Earnestness: Firstly and most generally, there is an earnest desire that becomes a Christian who is truly repentant. This (spoude) signifies haste, or a speed that accompanies repentance. I believe that what Paul is trying to get across to his readers is that when the offending party encounters God-given repentance there is a haste or speedy desire to make things right. It is recognition that the offending party desire to make things right before God and his fellow man. Calvin notes in his commentary that this earnest desire �we may understand from what is opposed to it; for so long as there is no apprehension of sin, we lie drowsy and inactive. Hence drowsiness or carelessness, or unconcern, stands opposed to that earnest desire� � This earnestness then is tied to the desire to speedily remedy the wrong done by the sinner.

2. Eagerness: Secondly, there is an eagerness to clear yourself. Literally, to give an apology or defense. Calvin notes that rather than give a defense or excuse for the sin, the word (apologion) is used in the sense of asking pardon. The plea, or apology, then is not to excuse the sin, but rather to seek mercy and forgiveness from the one who has been offended . The idea is akin to coming and throwing yourself at the mercy of the court rather than giving a defense of your case to prove your innocence in the particular matter. This signifies a differentiation in attitudes. The person who has not truly been apprehended by God with true repentance seeks to justify or give reason for the sin committed, but the person truly gripped by a godly sorrow has a humble and contrite attitude. They do not seek to give an explanation for why they sinned so much as they seek mercy for their sin, recognizing that they are without excuse.


3. Indignation: This is indignation towards their sin and even against themselves. This is a righteous, godly indignation, which accompanied with the other evidences, does not lead to a morbid introspection, but rather an outcry against the sin committed. The sinner then seems angry at the sin and even at themselves for having engaged in it, knowing that there is only himself to blame for having engaged in that sin. This is more intense than sorrow Calvin says, because it has become the first step towards hating evil . Thomas Watson comments in his treatise on true repentance that our indignation and sorrow for our sin should be of the same measure as the sin committed . He notes that the failure to weep over our sin is directly connected to our view of the riches of Christ�s mercy and grace poured out upon us !

4. Fear: What alarm or terror Paul says was produced as a result of repentance. This alarm, this phobos), derives from a sense of divine judgment. This stems from the knowledge that at the last day, every man must give account for his own actions. Proverbs tells us that fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.


5. Vehement desire: Paul accompanies fear with vehement desire, or longing. Whereas fear may stem from a natural inclination, according to Calvin, this longing is a more conscious desire rooted in the desire to not commit the sin anymore and thus risk God�s condemnation .

6. Zeal: Paul builds to a climax his exposition of the fruits of repentance. Building off the previous two fruits, fear and longing, Paul adds zeal which is a more intense form in this context of longing. This zeal stems from a desire to make things right as the offender desires to give evidence of his repentance.


7. Revenge: Paul finishes out his discourse on true repentance with revenge. ekdikesis means vindication or retribution. True repentance then, also bears the mark of one who wants to vindicate themselves through the demonstration of their repentance. It may be that Paul here has in mind I Corinthians 11:31, where he tells them that if they would judge themselves, they would not be judged by the Lord. Paul here is telling us that if we would judge ourselves, then there would be no need to be chastened by the Lord. Private offenses, says Calvin, need not be handled publicly, but as in the case of the man who was openly sinning by sleeping with his father�s wife, there needed to be a public chastening and also a public repentance on the part of the Corinthians for their tolerance of such a sin .


In some instances, as evidenced in Paul�s description of our 7th point (Revenge), restitution may be in mind. For instance, if a man has taken the goods of another, he may seek to offer repayment for it. This must be a heartfelt restitution. In Luke 19:8, Zacchaeus offers to restore what he stole four-fold. This is a principle which was derived from Numbers 5:7. Important also to note is the fact that this idea was not limited to physical goods (land, money, goods), but extended to false accusations as well. Some sins though, may be so grievous that restitution may never be able to be provided. This must be kept in mind as we cannot separate the doctrine of repentance from Christ our great high priest. It is not possible for us to recompense God for sin against His Holy nature. So how is such a thing accomplished? It is only accomplished in the person and work of our savior, Jesus Christ. Christ has made restitution on our behalf before the Father. He has paid what no man can and has satisfied the righteous requirements of God�s law. Likewise, there may be instances where sin against our brother or sister is so great that restitution may not be possible. It is here also that the grace of God must cover our infirmities. Truthfully, the burden of this rests upon the offended party rather than the offender since it is the offended party who has to provide grace and mercy. Thomas Watson notes that the true child of God seeks the most to be revenged of the sins which have offended God the most . It may be that one of the best ways to avenge the sin is recompensing the one offended.


This may seem like a hard view of repentance, especially in light of the modern evangelical view of sin where grace is cheapened by a �soft repenting�, that is, a repenting that does little introspection does not search the heart and has a view that �God will just forgive whatever I do if I just ask�. Yet, we see David�s words in Psalm 51 regarding how we should view our own sin, where in verse 3, David says �my sin is ever before me�. David�s intent here is not that the threat of God�s judgment is ever before his eyes; rather it is the idea that our hearts should break because our own sin has grieved our comforter. David is saying �my sin is my own fault, and my own sin is before my face� In the Old Testament evidence of true repentance was shown outwardly through various means (shaving one�s head, weeping, sitting in ashes, and clothing one�s self in sackcloth), but in the New Testament Paul shows us a better way. Paul tells us in this passage 1) our repentance must be God-inspired in order to be genuine repentance 2) genuine repentance has genuine fruits 3) real repentance is not short-lived (as evidenced in the nature of the fruits it bears), hence the irrevocable nature of the salvation which leads to repentance.




Concluding remarks:


It is important to note that these outward manifestations are evidences of an inward work of the Holy Spirit, for without the Holy Spirit, no true repentance could take place. Paul saw the evidence of true repentance. Paul�s concluding remarks is that they �proved themselves innocent at every point�. This means that he was able to see the evidences of a true repentance in them as they were spurred on by their zeal to prove it. We see that such repentance is also profitable in that comfort is provided to the truly repentant. This is seen in Paul�s general manner towards the Corinthians as he seeks to encourage them as well as the tone of Paul�s words that Christ provides comfort to those who mourn, and even though their sin has caused them sorrow, their repentance if followed by encouragement from the comforter who brings peace in the midst of our turning.
There also appears to be a difference in humility versus humiliation in this passage. Paul sees their repentance and says in essence �it is enough�. He is not requiring them to go beyond the bounds of what Scripture requires. Paul�s primary concern is that their earnestness, their genuineness is seen by God. This is displayed in verse 12 where he says that he desires that they see their care for them is evident in the sight of God. One of the great treasures of the Gospel is that God grants pardon to us in Christ if we truly seek him in repentance. As the great work of the Holy Spirit grips us and takes hold, peace begins to reign in our life knowing, trusting, and resting in the knowledge that not only has Christ defeated death, but He has also defeated sin. It is a living in the midst of the already/not yet. Knowing that God has already justified us, he has already given His Son, our redemption has already been accomplished, His words of promise have already been written for our instruction, and yet, we still see through a glass darkly. We have not yet seen the fulfillment of the sanctifying work of the Spirit, Christ�s Kingdom has not yet been finally established; death while defeated has not yet been eradicated. It is the knowledge that we are living in the midst of redemptive history and God�s plans are being worked out in and through us, yes even in the midst of our sin, and His glory is displayed in our repentance.

also wanted to add that true humility comes from a knowledge of God and a true knowledge of our sin. When we begin to comprehend these things, we begin to understand how great our sin is before God first and man second.

CV

CV,

Tell me again why you are not behind a pulpit? Your words are divinely delivered and it's timing is more than coincidence.

Yesterday was our 16th. I bought her nice �78 flowers w/champs&chocs, Aquamarine bracelet (for 16) and �200 spa pamper voucher. She was upset at the flowers - not sure she knows the other have arrived or if she knows they were from me.

She says that she is cutting costs trying to plan for a difficult financial future (what is she planning??? This sounds very ominous and scares me) and she feels her efforts are undone when she gets it back in the post as flowers she doesn't like.

***EDIT*** What can I do? I am in a true bind! All accounts are shared but one (my MC, which she has a second card for), so if I am wanting to keep open and honest and non-independent in our financial decisions, how do I do things like buy flowers and gifts (her love language!) if she says no to everything?

There must be some way for me to exercise my right to do these elementary wooing acts to try and woo her properly again!

I have no real oppportunity now to meet any of her ENs because she asked me to leave, which I did for her...what can I do to "break this vicious cycle" that Dr H mentions in HNHN?

I am assuming responsibility for this and feelit is up to me to make the sacrifice to save it...I just feel there is very little left I can do?

It has already been 7 months today (separated 26/4/2011) and I am running out of ways and things to do for her to rebuild, and at the same time I am trying to work on me, but I just fell pressure to turn the boat before it's too late and she decides to file. I don't think she has any plans to find a new partner as she is totally committed to the Bs, but it doesn't mean she won't try to divorce just to break the connection from me. Hence I still feel pressure to try something towards her at the same time as working on myself...

I did speak briefly today when handing Bs back and apologised about flowers having upset her, and very clearly stated that everything I have is hers and all my money and stuff belongs to her and that I would never leave her alone financially. I am still committed to her and I intend to continue it and make it better (hence now I do not buy anything that is not a normal daily life need, e.g. food/groc.) without checking with her first, even if it only costs �5! And I intend to make it clear that she will always be top in my will should anything happen. And I intend to ensure she has full access to all of my accounts (although it's harder with more secure banking now). We actually do try and practise this and even in very recent months have both sought to establish full joint, equal access to all personal and company bank accounts for each of us (which is somewhat confusing for me if her plan is ultimately to D).

What can I do for her to rebuild confidence whilst continuing to work on me?

are you guys still doping family dinners? If I remember right, you are across the street from her, right?

Use those opportunities to meet her emotional needs. Have you actually asked her if she is interested in repairing the marriage?

CV