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@MelodyLane I HAVE REPLIED WITHIN YOUR TEXT BODY IN ALL CAPS PRECEDED BY ***. LOL @@MelodyLane. Not permission, but were not allowed. What I meant by "weaker" was that throughout history, even in the Bible, women are referred to as the weaker vessel, meaning not mentally but physically. And due to that, women have been dominated. luvinlife, I do agreee that there are lots and lots of very weak, timid women out there who allow themselves to be dominated. And sadly, we have men who are now following suit. Just go look on the Surviving an Affair forum.  My point is that women do not need "permission" to do something anymore than men needed "permission." *** THIS IS NOT WHAT I AM IMPLYING. I AM EXPLAINING THAT HISTORY HAS PREVENTED WOMEN FROM EXPRESSING THEMSELVES SEXUALLY UNTIL IT BECAME AN ALMOST INSTINCTIVE BEHAVIOR, BUT CONTRARY TO NATURE! JUST MY OPINION. WOMEN ARE INDEED EXPRESSING THEMSELVES MORE OPENLY IN SEXUAL AREAS NOW, BUT IT'S BEEN A SLOW PROCESS DUE TO MEN DOMINATING THEM THROUGHOUT HISTORY. THE STRONGER DOMINATE THE WEAKER. (PHYSICALLY) MEN HAVE BEEN ALLOWED TO DO AS THEY PLEASE, WOMEN HAVE NOT. // Women can be accountable for their own failures in life, and blaming men for our failures is not a sign of strength, but weakness. There is no empowerment through victimhood. ***NO FAILURE HAS BEEN MENTIONED, ONLY THE REASON I BELIEVE WOMEN HAVE NOT EXPRESSED THEMSELVES SEXUALLY AS MUCH AS MEN WITHOUT REPERCUSSIONS... // What would we say to a man who blamed his life's failures on his wife's "dominance?" If he said he couldn't achieve because his momma-wife didn't "allow" him? And didn't hand him the resources on a silver platter? Would we go for that or would we call that man a wuss? It is the same with women. I understand there are women who behave like children who need "permission" from their big poppa daddy husbands in order to do anything, but we can't blame men for their weakness. If they choose to act like children, they have to be willing to take some accountability. In my thinking, women who act like children deserve to be treated as such. ***AGREED. NO BLAMING, JUST A FACT THAT MEN HAVE SUPPRESSED WOMEN'S SEXUALITY AND WOMEN NEED TO CHANGE THAT. MEN NEED TO COOPERATE AS WELL. A KNOCK OUT FRIEND OF MINE POSTED AN AWESOME PROFILE PIC ON HIS FACEBOOK OF HIMSELF WITHOUT HIS SHIRT. YOU SHOULD HAVE SEEN THE MALE COMMENTS POKING FUN OF HIM, CALLING HIM GAY, JUST B/C HE ADVERTISED HIS BODY!!!!!!!!!! GRRR! LOL MEN ARE SO INSECURE. WOMEN DEAL WITH IT CONSTANTLY, ARE ENCOURAGED TO SHOW OFF THEIR BODIES, BUT MEN POKE FUN AT OTHER MEN WHO DO THE SAME. // Grrr. Since the media is a huge teaching tool, men should be exposed to more media causing them to change their sexuality. (more emphasis put on scenes emphasizing a man's body, more scenes of men showing their bodies off) which would create a reaction in women, mold their thinking. This has no basis in reality. Men's "sexuality" is a very individual thing and most men are wired to be stimulated visually. ***I BELIEVE WOMEN ARE TOO, BUT IT'S NOT EXPANDED UPON. THERE ARE JUST AS MANY NUDE PHOTOS OF MEN IN ARCHAEOLOGICAL FINDINGS. MEN'S BODIES ARE SUPPOSE TO LOOK HOT TO WOMEN! WHEN THERE EXISTS A HOT GUY, MORE WOMEN ARE AFTER HIM! SMILE // Women are typically not stimulated visually, as evidenced by past failures of nudie magazines aimed at women. *** THEY MAY LOVE THEM IF THEY WERE THEY HAD BEEN ALLOWED TO EXPRESS THEMSELVES. IT'S CHANGING. WOMEN'S BREASTS WOULD NOT BE SUCH A BIG DEAL IF THE MEDIA DID NOT SET THEM UP TO BE SO. I FEEL THE MEDIA PLAYS A HUGE ROLE IN MOLDING THE MIND!!! // The media doesn't have the power to "mold" the emotional needs of men and women. The top emotional needs of most men is sexual fulfillment and physical appearance and for women it is affection and conversation. That has nothing to do with the media but with how our brains are wired. *** PEOPLE ARE OBLIVIOUS TO WHERE THEY LACK: MEN HAVE NOT BEEN CONSCIENTIOUS OF THEIR EMOTIONAL NEEDS B/C THEY HAVE BEEN TAUGHT TO SUPPRESS THAT! MEN DON'T CRY. MEN HAVE NOT HAD FATHERS TO HOLD AND COMFORT THEM. BOYS ARE TOLD TO NOT CUDDLE A BABY DOLL IN ROLE MODELING FOR FATHERHOOD. SO MEN ARE NOT IN TUNE TO THEIR LACK OF EMOTIONAL FULFILLMENT. WOMEN ARE. WOMEN ARE RAISED TO NURTURE. MEN NEED TO BE AS WELL. AND WOMEN ARE LIKEWISE NOT RAISED TO PUT A TON OF EMPHASIS ON SEX AS MEN ARE. THINGS ARE NOT BALANCED. //
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luv, with all due respect, what you say is based on cultural stereotypes put forth in the 60's and can't be supported with facts. Men and women have very different brains, very different emotional wiring, and as such, have entirely different emotional needs.
Its not because of mean ole men, our momma's or the media. It is just basic nature. It is because we are biologically different. Culture has very little to do with it.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Women don't usually have an aversion to sex. This I agree with. I spent years trying to figure out what was wrong with me that my wife wouldn't have sex with me after we got married. Before marriage it was fine. I didn't AO, I asked questions, did everything she asked of me and followed all her suggestions...was still lucky to have SF once a month. I''m talking about our first five childless years here. This was what brought me to MB in the first place. Women need 2 things to enjoy sex with a man, an emotional attachment and the prospect of enjoyment.
This is why sexual problems tend to disappear when the concepts of Marriage Builders are implemented and love is restored. I am glad to see you connect the second paragraph with the first! This is the point I try to make when I follow up with "3) an understanding that SF is a valid emotional need". My W was so wrapped up in her own issues, and didn't understand how important SF was to me, that it just never happened. TBH, I never really understood (or wanted to admit) how important SF was to me, and didn't have the tools to articulate it. That's one thing I got out of MB, was the ability to state my needs/feelings without it coming across as an attack or DJ. Now with 3 little kids, the problem for my W as a SAHM isn't willingness or desire, but time and energy. She is usually spent by the time I get home and help everyone get fed, bathed and put to bed. In our counseling with JHC it was suggested that we pick the times when my W has the most energy and can focus on US, and schedule our SF then. All the kids are in school on Tuesday mornings, and I have a large amount of flexibility in my job, so that's one of our "dates". I jealously guard this time and have to remind my W from time to time to not schedule doctor appointments or grocery store runs in this time. We're not where I'd like to be but we're a lot closer to it than we were six years ago. IMO the system does work if you keep at it.
Me - 44
DW - 39
Married 16 years
DS10
DS6
DD4
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[In our counseling with JHC it was suggested that we pick the times when my W has the most energy and can focus on US, and schedule our SF then. I think this is an important point and I heard Dr Harley touch on this today. He said that many couples try to have sex at the end of the day when they are most exhausted and at their worst. It should be the opposite. It is best to schedule it for a time when you are at your BEST. My DH and I have always done that and I think that has been a very effective tactic.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Everyone,
All good suggestions. I feel it is a consensus that it is the wife who needs the schedule and the motivation....wives will sometimes make up every excuse to not have SF.
I once heard in a marriage seminar that there is two types of acts... The steak, and the hamburger. Men could care less, as long as they get to "eat" and women should not complain when it is just a hamburger.
I haven't had steak in a very long time bc wife says she has never enjoyed SF and thinks it is gross. She is sexual adverse, much like people who won't eat sushi. The she goes and has sushi with some POSOM. Plan A is hard with those facts. Sorry didn't mean to mix threads.
Me (BH): 42
Her (WS): 39
Married 19 yrs
DD: 16, DD: 11, DD: 7
D-Day: 7-5-2011, Caught searching 10-15-2012
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TTS, did you read the Marriage Builders advice we posted? That is the solution. Bitbucket and I have used this program to resolve that problem. If you use this program it will solve your problem. Did you read this article? The question of the ages: How can a husband receive the sex he needs in marriage?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Emilyann,
It's not so much for my WW ( she is need of a lot of deprograming ) as it is for my 15 yr old. I don't want her to grow up with these same misconceived ideas about sex. We talk, I just wanted to make sure this is not something nature has programmed.
My WW grew up in a very strict CoC house, where kissing and hugging were not talked about. He11 was a place made for young people who had sex...and all that. She is still adverse to SF, even at our most enjoyable time, she had a disliking of SF. It was one of the things she could live without. Which is why her PA is a major obsticle for me to overcome. I needed to know if there was a learned behavior or if it was genetic. My hypothesis is it was learned.
Thanks for the study, it shows what many men believe. I grew up in a very extreme Biblical household, my parents never spoke of sex to me. It was very taboo. Even in our very worst times my DH and I have a happy sex life. It's not always upbringing. 
Me: 30
Him: 39
Together 5 years
Married the very best man in the world 04/06/2013 after being common law for too long. I'm a lucky woman.
7 Cats - Viscount Ashley of Leftfield, Pawkie Petunia, The Timinator, Leo the Lionheart, Fruit Snack, Cloud, and Barret
And our very lucky pony, Starbucks
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I grew up in a very extreme Biblical household, my parents never spoke of sex to me. It was very taboo. Even in our very worst times my DH and I have a happy sex life. It's not always upbringing. And I was raised by ATHEISTS. One of my parents was downright promiscuous and promoted adultery. Yet I grew into adulthood [and my last marriage] hating sex. It always seemed "dirty" to me. The important thing is that one's childhood is irrelevant when it comes to changing adult behavior. Regardless of one's "childhood" people can and do learn to enjoy sex in the right environment.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Emilyann,
It's not so much for my WW ( she is need of a lot of deprograming ) as it is for my 15 yr old. I don't want her to grow up with these same misconceived ideas about sex. We talk, I just wanted to make sure this is not something nature has programmed.
My WW grew up in a very strict CoC house, where kissing and hugging were not talked about. He11 was a place made for young people who had sex...and all that. She is still adverse to SF, even at our most enjoyable time, she had a disliking of SF. It was one of the things she could live without. Which is why her PA is a major obsticle for me to overcome. I needed to know if there was a learned behavior or if it was genetic. My hypothesis is it was learned.
Thanks for the study, it shows what many men believe. I grew up in a very extreme Biblical household, my parents never spoke of sex to me. It was very taboo. Even in our very worst times my DH and I have a happy sex life. It's not always upbringing. That does not sound "extreme Biblical" to me.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Extreme Biblical:
Let your fountain be blessed, And rejoice in the wife of your youth. As a loving hind and a graceful doe, Let her breasts satisfy you at all times; Be exhilarated always with her love.
(Proverbs 5:18-19)
What you are describing as "extremely Biblical" sounds to me more like the Hole-y Bible: parts left out.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Everyone,
All good suggestions. I feel it is a consensus that it is the wife who needs the schedule and the motivation....wives will sometimes make up every excuse to not have SF. Why don't you write in to Dr. Harley on the radio show and see what he has to say about it?
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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I haven't had steak in a very long time bc wife says she has never enjoyed SF and thinks it is gross. She is sexual adverse, much like people who won't eat sushi. I took a quick look around at the rest of your posts. Do I understand correctly that your wife is formerly wayward, not currently in an affair, you guys are in recovery? I would go back and look at that post ML made that you said you're going to print out. Emotional connection for your wife is key, so I would go to the ends of the earth to provide that for her, if you want to have a good marriage full of steak. And if you're trying to get through recovery and it just doesn't seem to be happening, I would look into some of the other options here: free counseling from Dr. Harley on the radio show, paid coaching from Steve Harley and Dr. Chalmers, access to Dr. Harley through the MB online program. If you are trying to make it work on your own and it's just not working, take it up to the next level. These threads where we talk about people in general and situations in abstract often seem to really be about something personal and close to home. We can try to support each other and hold each other up when marriage isn't what we expect, but HOPE comes from having a PLAN that is likely to make things better!
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Gotta watch them atheists...
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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I wanted to address something you put on Pepperband's thread in OT: I've always said, women are in control of the sex life in a marriage.....if it is a healthy or a negative..... The wife is in control?? Change that to the low drive spouse is in control of the sex life in a marriage. Just like they say that the spouse with the least love has the most power in the marriage. Yes, I'll freely admit that I used to think that it was just women whose sex drive died with the first bite of wedding cake. It happened to all my friends and the majority of SF incompatibilities I see here are wife-won't-have-SF issues. That said, I have seen a few husband-won't-have-SF posters. I'll admit they are hard for me to believe! I don't normally go into the guts of betrayed/wayward threads beyond basic questions, protect your money, expose, snoop, move home, that sort of thing. I leave the heavier lifting to people who are smarter than me, which is most everyone  But you're here so I'll give it a shot. IMO your FWW does not have a sexual aversion. If she can have SF with the OM then she can have it with you when she decides to. I think she is still in withdrawl from the OM or still trying to hold on to some piece of the fantasy. I don't know if you're counseling with the Harleys or not. If you're not, you should be. I strongly recommend Jennifer, as she is really good at reaching women on SF related issues. Think about it: if a male counselor tells a W that she needs to be having SF with her husband, she'll think, "of course you'd say that! You're a man!"...but if a female counselor tells her that, she doesn't have that out and will actually have to think about it. My advice, for what it's worth...continue with the 20 hours of UA time, identify and eliminate your own love busters, and fine tune your ability to meet her emotional needs. And counsel with the Harleys if you can.
Me - 44
DW - 39
Married 16 years
DS10
DS6
DD4
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Thanks to all. As I read all threads and suggestions on SAA, SF seems to be a major issue for most couples. The PA of the WS can be mind numbing for the BS. Having a better understanding how each others spouse works, is critical.
Sexual Aversion is a hot topic and I hope his thread continues.
Me (BH): 42
Her (WS): 39
Married 19 yrs
DD: 16, DD: 11, DD: 7
D-Day: 7-5-2011, Caught searching 10-15-2012
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Yeah, and this is so stupid. lol I personally think it stems from men being the dominant, controlling species. Men have been allowed to express themselves sexually all throughout history, and women have not been allowed, as the weaker of the two genders. Women were "owned" in a sense, women were taught to be pure for their future owner. Women are starting to express themselves more, but it's been a double standard for a long time! And one of my pet peeves b/c I hate unfairness! You are also right about how the media molds people's thinking. Women are constantly bombarded by movies/internet/magazines to show off their bodies. A lot of women desire the attention. It backfires on men b/c this makes men have to worry about their woman craving attention from others regarding her body. Not good. It would be smart for the media to feed women's sex drives, lol. I mean think about it. Hello. If men complain that women have lower sex drives, then start feeding it! lol Why is everything geared to feed the species with the (claimed) existing higher sex drive??? Things are backward! lol Women wear strings on the beach and men wear long shorts down to their knees! Not fair! lol If I were Oprah, I'd be advocating these double standards and changing things! lol I mean where's the equivalent Hooter's Restaurant for women??? The one named Peckers and we are surely talking about woodpeckers. The men must wear tight jeans to highlight their package, and no shirt with sexy suspenders. I can keep ranting, but I won't. lol Well, what about ancient Greece, Ireland, and Rome? on the surface they may have appeared to be male dominated societies, but in actuality many times it was the women using sex to control power and politics. The truth is, women are need driven and men are largely hormone driven. CV
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Emilyann,
It's not so much for my WW ( she is need of a lot of deprograming ) as it is for my 15 yr old. I don't want her to grow up with these same misconceived ideas about sex. We talk, I just wanted to make sure this is not something nature has programmed.
My WW grew up in a very strict CoC house, where kissing and hugging were not talked about. He11 was a place made for young people who had sex...and all that. She is still adverse to SF, even at our most enjoyable time, she had a disliking of SF. It was one of the things she could live without. Which is why her PA is a major obsticle for me to overcome. I needed to know if there was a learned behavior or if it was genetic. My hypothesis is it was learned.
Thanks for the study, it shows what many men believe. Tex, having had some experience with CoC, I can sympathize to a degree. Somewhat off-topic, but i wonder if your W's affair (at least in part was simply rebellion). Anyway, that's not my point. My point is this: At some point(s), you are going to have to have a sex talk with your DD (and maybe your W). You are going to have to explain that sex is something good. It is God ordained and beneficial and enjoyable for BOTH parties. If Ephesians 5 23-28 is true, and marriage is a picture of Christ and the church, then where and how does sex fit in to this? Simply in this way: We were created to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. Sex pictures in a very human way, the deepest level of intimacy between God and his people. It expresses "knowing", a term we hear all the time. "I didn't know her in the biblical sense"... We even carry the Hebrew usage over into English... When someone talks too much we go "yada yada yada". The Hebrew word is used connotatively to describe both intimate conversation AND intercourse. It suggests intimacy. The truth is, God knows us deeper and better than we know ourselves. Our task is to become intimate with God. In marriage, we reflect this by taking the time to become "intimate". That is we take time to learn. We are (or are supposed to be learning) much more than "grace likes tulips". We learn our lovers bodies, we learn their hearts, we learn their minds. We "yada". We should be teaching our kids (and spouses) this. That sex is good! BUT only in the right context... the context of marriage. We accomplish this by learning what our spouses needs are and meeting them. We are affectionate, we are hard working to provide stability, we work to enjoy shared interests with each other recreationally... "fundamentalism" has really missed the boat on this sadly. Few of us were good lovers when we married. Some of us become good lovers by being students of our spouses. Aversion is overcome when we work to "lay our life down", that is do the dirty work of getting to know our spouses (yada) and work to meet those needs they have. CV
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If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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CoC is a fundamentalist group that broke off of mainline Presbyterianism in the 1800's. "Church of Christ". They have some unique beliefs for a protestant group (baptism saves, no instruments in worship, no creeds or confessions,and some other issues) The one in front of our house when I was in seminary had no windows and only one door. At one time they were on the FBI cult watch-list
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I am a member of the Church of Christ. Every church I have been a member of (all were Churches of Christ) has had a positive attitude toward sex. I'm sorry some people had different experiences. I do think Dr. Harley has the solution. I don't think it has a lot to do with going over your past, including past church affiliations. 
Last edited by markos; 11/29/11 10:08 AM.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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