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Nobody here is going to judge you. Stay, go, stay for a while and see how it goes. None of these good people are going to fault you for any of those. But they will expect you to work towards whatever your goal is.

I see your options as being three things. Stay and accept that your wife will go outside your marriage until she isn't able to anymore due to age. Leave now, rebuild and maybe be alone or find someone else. Or finally you take the hardcore advice Mel will give you, and maybe you can recover fully maybe not.

The forum can help you with the last two. You might not find a lot of members here with much advice on number one.

I am a fbh, who did fight after some energetic encouragement from the lady from Texas. I hang around to try to lend a hand to other bhs, and drive Mel crazy whenever I can. I am not judging you. I know exactly how you feel.

Best of luck sir.


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Bliss,
I'm going to be honest, I haven't done this forum thing in a while and haven't been looking to see who was posting. I thought I was getting hammered by multiple people and have been having a conversation with mostly you.
I can see where your points are, I agree with your assessment of the situation based off of what you know.
You must understand the whole picture here, and I don't think you do. This was a family friendship between my W and his W myself and my friend. We were very close friends. They are good people and live what I would call an honorable lifestyle. We have for the past 8 years of our lives spent a lot of time together, doing what friends do. He and I hunt and fish and my wife enjoys those interests as well. This is why she wasn't as close to his W. My W and friend never did things together without me until this summer when we moved in to our new house. This was the only time they were together alone. There was a period of about two months that nearly every weekend he was here. We worked through the day on getting the garages in order and unpacking and working on the tractor and all the things that needed to be done before winter. Every Saturday night we would have a campfire by the creek and there was always beer. I can honestly say that it almost turned into a party every Saturday night and usually ended with having had too much. In this time period of 2 months I noticed their friendship became close. Now, I know too close. There was only maybe 3 nights that they were completely alone, the rest of the time there were other friends here or his wife was here. I was here every night and like I said I had blind faith and left the two of them at the campfire and went to bed before they did. Prior to the two month in question, my wife rarely would drink, and if she did it was very little. she started drinking quite a bit more during this two month period. I don't want to paint this picture as if we were all a bunch of drunks, but we W & I were excited about the new property as well as our friends, so it did turn into a near 2 month weekend party.


Me BH previous user name SEM
WW Senninpaswife previous user name Keep Smiling
Married 16 years - HS sweethearts
2 kids, Boy 15 years, Girl 13 years

WW's Affair #1,2,3,4 @ 1 year into marriage All ONS type PAs
DDay #1 09/11/01 False recovery for 10 years

WW's Affair #5 07/11 - 10/11 with my best friend EA&PA
DDay #2 11/27/11
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Senn, how many more affairs would you tolerate?

What is your limit? If FIVE is not too much, how much is too much? Is there a limit?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by senninpa
I can see where your points are, I agree with your assessment of the situation based off of what you know.
You must understand the whole picture here, and I don't think you do.

I am confused by this. How did this added information change anything we have told you? We have enough of the picture to fully understand your situation. None of this information changes that. Your wife is a serial cheater who has poor boundaries around men.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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How does beer and a campfire explain anything? How does multiple affairs in the past and recovering from that - not translate into fire and brimstone when it happens again?

Either you are OK with affairs or you are not. If you are not, you have more reason to take action here than more other people on the forum. Make her jump through whatever hoops you want to rejoin the marriage!

What is it you actually want? Other than to simply stay married?


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I am at a stalemate here. I have to refer back to my prior post, I had a different experience from the crowd here 10 years ago. If you think 9 years ago was that much different than ten your wrong. The people back then would almost always encourage anyone to try to work on their marriage, not toss it aside and move on because they couldn't relate. I am getting pointed questions and statements that only can be interpreted as toss it and move on. That is not why I came here.

If you think we didn't follow these steps and read all the books and work out our marriage, you are wrong. There are people here with more knowledge about surviving an affair than me, however I do have a bit of experience in the matter. If you think I haven't spent solid year or more behind a monitor reading post like these and giving advise and discussing my problems, your wrong. Hell, I stopped posting but continued reading for two solid years after that. If you think I don't realize what a serial cheater is, I don't know what to say. I read through today and see the same new people coming in, with the same problems, nothing here has changed, couple new ideas. I will always recommend anyone I know that has dealt with this issue to come here because it does work.

I am hear because my heart was torn out of my chest again, only yesterday. I was hoping to find a bit of support and maybe a bit of understanding.

Why does Marriage Builders preach these things, because this can happen to any one of the people on this board that recover from an affair. People lose sight and end up here, rock bottom. We did not keep these concepts close, and became complacent in our lives. She did what she did and that brings us back home to where I felt comfortable with sharing my problems.

I have choices to make, and will in time. I do not need encouragement to end my marriage.


Me BH previous user name SEM
WW Senninpaswife previous user name Keep Smiling
Married 16 years - HS sweethearts
2 kids, Boy 15 years, Girl 13 years

WW's Affair #1,2,3,4 @ 1 year into marriage All ONS type PAs
DDay #1 09/11/01 False recovery for 10 years

WW's Affair #5 07/11 - 10/11 with my best friend EA&PA
DDay #2 11/27/11
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Senn, I have been here over 10 years and when I arrived posters were not discussing Marriage Builders, they were just chatting.

One of the first things in recovery is correcting sloppy boundaries around members of the opposite sex so that a repeat affair does not happen. As you know, Dr Harley does NOT believe in or advocate "trust" in marriage. He advises observing solid boundaries instead.

Nor does he believe in marriage at all costs. Marriage Builders has never been about marriage at all costs. Dr Harley routinely tells people they should get a divorce. After FIVE affairs, something is very wrong here.

Now, do I think your marriage can be saved? Maybe. But it will take a radical 180 degree change on your wife's part. Is she willing to do that?

And it will take actually USING this program this time. That means exposing the affair, getting STD testing, cutting off all contact between your families, AFFAIR PROOFING your marriage, and creating a romantic, INTEGRATED lifestyle with your wife. It will take extraordinary precautions to prevent a repeat. If you and your wife are serious about doing that, then it is possible.

But what CAN'T HAPPEN again is that nothing changes in your marriage and unwarranted "forgivness" is afforded your wife. That will harm your marriage, I assure you.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Senn, do you have the book Surviving an Affair? I would focus on the program there, but one of the most important things that will faciliate recovery will be exposure. This is even more important in your situation because your wife is a serial cheater. Harley talks about here: When Should an Affair Be Exposed?

and in these notable quotes:
Originally Posted by Dr Harley
"Exposure is very likely to end the affair, lifting the fog that has overcome the unfaithful spouse, helping him or her become truly repentant and willing to put energy and effort into a full marital recovery. In my experience with thousands of couples who struggle with the fallout of infidelity, exposure has been the single most important first step toward recovery. It not only helps end the affair, but it also provides support to the betrayed spouse, giving him or her stamina to hold out for ultimate recovery."

Originally Posted by Dr Harley
"The reason for the wide exposure is not to hurt the unfaithful spouse, but rather to end the fantasy. Your husband's secret second life made his affair possible, and the more you can to to make it public, the easier it is for him to see the damage he's doing. Keeping it secret does damage, but few know about it. Making it public helps everyone, including the unfaithful spouse and lover, see the affair for what it really is."

And his specific advice for unusual affairs, such as long term or serial affairs:
Originally Posted by Dr Harley
While most affairs die a natural death in less than two years, there are some that take much longer to die. That's one of the primary reasons that my first rule in surviving an affair is to never see or talk to the lover again -- even if the affair seems to have died a natural death. An affair can rekindle after it seems to be over. And to guarantee complete separation between the unfaithful spouse and the lover, extraordinary precautions must be taken, such as providing radical accountability and transparency. In many cases, I've encouraged couples I've counseled to change jobs or even move to another state to help create permanent separation.

Another suggestion I make to a couple struggling to restore their marriage after one of them had an affair is to make the affair public. Everyone should know what happened -- children, relatives, friends, and especially the children and spouse of the lover -- so that the affair is exposed to the light of day. What often makes affairs appealing is that it is done in secret. Most affairs become very unappealing once everyone knows about it.

So whether an affair is a one night stand, or has been going on for years, the basic rule for ending them are the same -- extraordinary precautions to guarantee permanent separation. But I will admit that the precautions used for long-term affairs are usually more extraordinary than those used for short-term affairs. I've helped many spouses overcome affairs that have lasted over ten years, but none of them have been easy.

Best wishes
Willard F. Harley, Jr.

And here is summary of what it will take for recovery:

Originally Posted by Dr Harley
The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide.

I'll describe these two parts to you in a little more detail.

The first step, complete separation from the lover and eliminating the conditions that made the affair possible, requires a complete understanding of the affair. All information regarding the affair must be revealed to the betrayed spouse, including the name of the lover, the conditions that made the affair possible (travel, internet, etc.), the details of what took place during the affair, all correspondence, and anything else that would shed light on the tragedy.

This information is important for two reasons: (1) it creates accountability and transparency, making it essentially impossible for the unfaithful spouse to continue the affair or begin a new one unnoticed, and (2) it creates trust for the betrayed spouse, providing evidence that the affair is over and a new one is unlikely to take its place. The nightmares you experience are likely to continue until you have the facts that
will lead to your assurance that your husband can be trusted.

An analysis of the wayward spouse's childhood or emotional state of mind in an effort to discover why he or she would have an affair is distracting and unnecessary. It takes precious time away from finding the real solutions. I know why people have affairs: We are all wired for it. Given certain conditions, we would all do it. Given other conditions, however, none of us would do it. So the goal of the first step is to discover the conditions that made the affair possible and eliminate them.

After the first step is completed, the second step is to create a romantic relationship between you and your husband using my 10 Basic Concepts here
as your guide. While your relationship may be improving, it won't lead to a romantic relationship because you are not being transparent toward each other. Unspoken issues in a marital relationship lead to a superficiality that ruins romance.
here


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Melody,
I appreciate what you have to say despite getting a little pi55ed off. This is helping the heartache. Did you know JDMack and Faith, they were big posters back then.
The boards were set up differently back then, more choice on the affair side. Some boards were more geared toward discussion than working on marriage, however what I saw was usually positive and helpful discussion.

I cannot disagree, we will have to start over and maintain these concepts throughout our lives if we are even able to continue the marriage. As for now, I cannot see walking away, this is only day one and this might change.


Me BH previous user name SEM
WW Senninpaswife previous user name Keep Smiling
Married 16 years - HS sweethearts
2 kids, Boy 15 years, Girl 13 years

WW's Affair #1,2,3,4 @ 1 year into marriage All ONS type PAs
DDay #1 09/11/01 False recovery for 10 years

WW's Affair #5 07/11 - 10/11 with my best friend EA&PA
DDay #2 11/27/11
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Originally Posted by senninpa
Melody,
I appreciate what you have to say despite getting a little pi55ed off. This is helping the heartache. Did you know JDMack and Faith, they were big posters back then.

Yes, I remember them well. smile

Quote
The boards were set up differently back then, more choice on the affair side. Some boards were more geared toward discussion than working on marriage, however what I saw was usually positive and helpful discussion.

I didn't see much work on marriages back then because Marriage Builders wasn't discussed much. Now it is more of a learning place where the focus is on Marriage Builders.

Quote
I cannot disagree, we will have to start over and maintain these concepts throughout our lives if we are even able to continue the marriage. As for now, I cannot see walking away, this is only day one and this might change.

Gotcha. It is entirely salvagable if you follow this program. WE are here to help you, friend. smile


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Did the agree to immediately end it?

Last edited by PhoenixStar; 11/30/11 11:10 PM.
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Quote
I'm going to be honest, I haven't done this forum thing in a while and haven't been looking to see who was posting. I thought I was getting hammered by multiple people and have been having a conversation with mostly you.
I can see where your points are, I agree with your assessment of the situation based off of what you know.
You must understand the whole picture here, and I don't think you do.
senn, thank you for fleshing out the details behind your WW's latest adultery, but it really doesn't add or take away from the basic facts:
- your WW has poor boundaries
- she will pursue opportunities to be unfaithful to you
- you have accepted this

You seem to be looking for someone to commiserate with you. While you'll get plenty of empathy here, it will be given to you in equal measure to advice about what you can do to recover and affair-proof your marriage. You appear to not want that advice. Which is fine, but I don't think you should become harsh with the people whose advice you have solicited.

I wasn't here 10 years ago, but I've spent a lot of time reading old threads. It IS a far cry from what it used to be. The old forums were more chat-oriented and veered away from a set, useful plan. It has evolved a lot, for the better.

If you've spent any time on this site lately you will find it chock-full of tools and concepts that work. But you have to DO the work. I don't know that your WW would be a willing participant in what is espoused here. I would still suggest you read the articles here. At the very least, they might help YOU.

One thing you'll learn while reading here is that it is normal for waywards to do what is called "trickle truth". They will frequently tell their betrayed spouse a little bit of the truth to see if the spouse will accept that as the whole truth, so they don't have to spill the whole adulterous story. That appears to have happened here. And you've accepted that, probably because you can't stand the thought of knowing more. Your choice, senn.

This is long enough, but I'll leave you with one very important thing to consider that you might not want to hear:
based on the length of time your wife has been wayward, you may want to test the paternity of your children. Sorry, senn.


D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!

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I had a different experience from the crowd here 10 years ago. ...The people back then would almost always encourage anyone to try to work on their marriage, not toss it aside and move on because they couldn't relate.

Is it that difficult to understand that you got different answers ten years ago because you were relating a different marital history? Back then, there were your WW's initial (group of) transgressions, but what we very well know here is that almost anyone, with one or two crappy choices, can find themselves involved in an affair. The support for the BS in that case usually has heavy doses of trying to keep them from bailing on the marriage. That is how you derived your impressions.

Now, however, you're presenting us with a WW who KNOWS how affairs begin (therefore being better able to avoid them), who KNOWS how badly her previous actions hurt you and put your union at risk, and yet spread 'em for your "good friend" anyway. At the same time you present us with what seems to be a laissez-faire attitude toward her infidelities. With all that, can you really be startled that the responders to your post are grabbing you by the shirt-front, shaking you, and screaming at you to start taking some hard actions?

I am getting pointed questions and statements that only can be interpreted as toss it and move on. That is not why I came here.

I'm not telling you to "toss it and move on", dude, but I would point out that the fear of you doing exactly that would have been a forceful brake on WW's haste to play "footsie" with anyone! If we can detect your "marriage at any cost" attitude from two days of postings, my friend, how much better would WW have known of it?

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phoenix, that discussion hasn't come up, do know there is no contact and will not be.

Bliss,

I do want advise, however, I do not want to hear a crowd below chanting jump, that will be my decision as to how I will continue with my life. I do not want to hear snap shot judgments based off of the number of affairs. If I came to this sight and said she only had one affair 15 years ago, the tone would likely be different. As you know there are different kind of affairs. Her prior affairs were a string of one night stand type A's over a short period of time. Take out the STD issue, that isn't a far cry from someone who maintains a long term A with countless sexual experiences with the same OP.

I am very aware of "tickle truth", this happened 15 years ago and I had to go to the extreme of tapping the phone 10 years ago to only get some of the truth. She gave me little bit by little bit, hoping I would either give up or accept it. I finally had it out on 9/11/01, I was packing my bags or she was telling the truth. I got it, and lived with it ever since.

As for the kids, we went down that road. At this point it wouldn't matter, they are my kids. It would take a cold heart to walk away from that if they weren't.







Me BH previous user name SEM
WW Senninpaswife previous user name Keep Smiling
Married 16 years - HS sweethearts
2 kids, Boy 15 years, Girl 13 years

WW's Affair #1,2,3,4 @ 1 year into marriage All ONS type PAs
DDay #1 09/11/01 False recovery for 10 years

WW's Affair #5 07/11 - 10/11 with my best friend EA&PA
DDay #2 11/27/11
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Neverguessed,

Well, points well taken.
I cannot deny I have a strong urge to try to work this out despite knowing the cold truth of the matter and knowing odds are it will happen again. She does know what it did to me. We changed our lives, quit good jobs, sold our house and moved across the country because of this. That is not a minor change, that was exceptional, as you can imagine an investment into this marriage. I can honestly say I was proud of the time and energy and what I endured trying to save this marriage last time around. She too put time and energy into it, posted here and read the books. I think I am a bit goal oriented and just want to jump back on that bandwagon and make it all better again, even though I am still numb and haven't had time to digest it all.

You are correct, I need to take a step back and look at the big picture.


Me BH previous user name SEM
WW Senninpaswife previous user name Keep Smiling
Married 16 years - HS sweethearts
2 kids, Boy 15 years, Girl 13 years

WW's Affair #1,2,3,4 @ 1 year into marriage All ONS type PAs
DDay #1 09/11/01 False recovery for 10 years

WW's Affair #5 07/11 - 10/11 with my best friend EA&PA
DDay #2 11/27/11
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Originally Posted by senninpa
I do want advise, however, I do not want to hear a crowd below chanting jump, that will be my decision as to how I will continue with my life. I do not want to hear snap shot judgments based off of the number of affairs.

Those snapshot "judgements" to which you refer are simple statements of fact, such as "FIVE AFFAIRS" and "serial cheater." Those are true facts that you have somehow managed to minimize and trivialize. I suspect that is why you are here facing affair FIVE. [or is it six, I can't keep them straight] Your angst comes from the fact that others around you have not minimized them and defined deviancy down, so to speak. We are more objective than you and have no reason to minimize the truth.

I would strongly suggest that you keep an open mind, and consider all your options. Marriage at all costs is NOT what Marriage Builders is about. And any person who is married to a long term serial cheater needs to take a realistic, rather than a minimalistic look at his chances of saving a marriage. A woman who has had multiple affairs throughout her marriage has NEVER learned her lesson and is extremely destructive to her family. Marriage at all cost is not a virtue.

We wouldn't be very supportive if we didn't help you understand that you have a huge problem here and perhaps part of that problem is your own approach. We are not simply YES MEN, after all.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by senninpa
I cannot deny I have a strong urge to try to work this out despite knowing the cold truth of the matter and knowing odds are it will happen again. She does know what it did to me. We changed our lives, quit good jobs, sold our house and moved across the country because of this.

She never changed her inappropriate boundaries around men, though. If everything you cite didn't stop her from having an affair in the past, then what will stop her in the future?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by senninpa
Yes, she had 4 A's the first time.

As for the polygraph, don't think I need one. I had the same question how could they not have had sex. To be honest IMO sex is much less intimate than oral sex, why wouldn't she be honest at that point. I called the friend directly after the truth was told and told him nothing more than I knew everything. I questioned him on each item. Oral sex she gave you how many times, he answered correctly. Oral sex he performed on her how many times, he answered correctly, and finally how many times did you have sex, he said that never happened. They couldn't have put that together in some kind of preplanned "lets only come partially clean scheme".

You easily forget or choose to ignore but when OM backed off, OMW acting suspicious, them being caught playing footsie by OMW, all were enough warning that you were about to find out so they better get their stories straight while the had the time.

Point is they had the time.

Now it's time for you to schedule the poly. Then tell WW you have one scheduled.

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Senn, just jumping in here,

I am so sorry you are in these circumstances where you have had to come back. frown I hope this situation can be turned around and that you can wind up with a marriage of faithfulness, protection, and romantic love.

Did you know you can get some free help directly from Dr. Harley? He has a daily radio show and takes questions over the air, including affair situations and other complicated situations. You can send him and his wife Joyce an email at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com and get a chance to talk on the air and get some ideas to help save your marriage.

Good luck, my friend. I look at the Marriage Builders logo, and hope that this describes your future.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Thanks Markos, I will look into that when things calm down.

For those of you who are interested, I figured out my user name of the past, it was SEM. My W was Keep Smiling.

DD# 2 Post from 09/11/01, reading it I sit here, a grown man, crying my eyes out.
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...amp;Words=SEM&Search=true#Post513200


Me BH previous user name SEM
WW Senninpaswife previous user name Keep Smiling
Married 16 years - HS sweethearts
2 kids, Boy 15 years, Girl 13 years

WW's Affair #1,2,3,4 @ 1 year into marriage All ONS type PAs
DDay #1 09/11/01 False recovery for 10 years

WW's Affair #5 07/11 - 10/11 with my best friend EA&PA
DDay #2 11/27/11
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Can I become attracted to anyone?
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MBRadio show discussing electric fence pers.
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Lack of sex - anyway to fix it?
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Radio Program Still Active?
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