Yes, exactly! This is a marvelous example!

It's not "fair" that the person who didn't cause the damage suffers for the actions of another and may have to do a lot of work up front to repair it. But it's very economic. You had $1000 worth of value, a disaster struck, and you now have $300 worth of value. Economics teaches us there ain't no such thing as a free lunch (I've actually heard this abbreviated as TANSTAAFL). So if you want to rebuild that $700 of lost value, the value is not going to come out of nowhere! You can charge it to the account of the one responsible for the damage, but then he's down $700, you're up $700, and together there's no net gain at all. You are going to have to invest real work to create new value, period.

It's not a happy conclusion, but it is a realistic one, and therefore it offers the ability to actually make meaningful change to your situation, and therefore it is the only way to offer genuine hope for things getting better.

Mark, I've never really read your story before. I am so sorry that you weren't able to get your wayward wife on board. I do hope maybe some day after divorce she might reconsider, but regardless, I hope for the best for you. You have obviously learned a lot about relationships and are set for good times ahead in days to come.

Thank you for reaching out and trying to help your brother and his wife. I consider that in doing things like this we are all helping everybody, by working to change the culture, and get the knowledge of what can save a marriage out there to make it common sense instead of a hidden treasure!

If MelodyLane was running the forum, I would go on it and promote Dr Pepper. But you're right, ordinarily I wouldn't do that. I just have one exception.


Right, there's no reason sites can't try out all kinds of different TOS to find out what works best for the people they are trying to serve. This is how innovation happens, and also how lots and lots of different people get their needs taken care of.

Before I came here I hated sites that did a lot of moderation. But when I came here, I needed to learn Marriage Builders, not be confused with conflicting advice, and for the first time in my life I learned to appreciate moderation.

People are not stupid, even when they're in pain. They can see what someone doing Plan A wrong does - they can see on those other sites what interpreting Plan A as Plan Doormat for eons does to a man's ability to produce testosterone.

Dr. Harley owns THIS site and has the right to control the content. He should control the content. But he does benefit from other sites who talk about his principles. When they want the real deal, they'll come get coaching from him; and they'll use his services here.

Bashing him on other sites doesn't reflect badly on him. It reflects badly on the basher. No matter on which board it occurs. Marriage recovery requires a tough minded counter-intuitive approach. Ignoring problems doesn't make them go away in a marriage. But we'd do well to ignore detractors in other places. For one thing it's time consuming. For another, it takes you off message here.

Perspective. Every good psychologist knows that energy is best spent where you have the power. Trying to fix someone "over there" is a waste of time and breath/keystrokes!

I've never really spent much time on any sites other than this one because I could quickly tell that the other sites I've visited could not address my needs like MB does. I'm not saying that makes them 'bad' - it just makes them not for me.

I've been moderated on this site before, when I've gotten a little...out of hand and caught up in the moment on some 'hot' thread or other. I never resented that. The moderation on this site keeps things organized and on track.

And I'm an organized kinda gal, so that squares pretty neatly with me.

Oh, I meant on non-marriage sites. I've been on the Internet in one form or another since 1996, and been a part of a lot of forums. But this was my first one that was really marriage related.

Bingo!

I would also add that MB advice given on the MB forum is then subject to peer review (and in some instances, review by Dr. Harley himself!).

Because of this, advice is given in a manner which remains consistent with the founder's intentions to a greater degree than those places where willy-nilly advice is given.

A liberal education is great, but useless without a base discipline.

It is nothing to do with Plan A or Plan Doormat, and your post is full of non-sequiturs and red herrings.

There is a site that functions as a "hate MB" site for much of its time. Most of the time the site has not been mentioned here, and people have treated it with a dignified silence even while being attacked by its members. However, when, very occasionally, someone refer to it, you come here trying to defend that site as being "positive". I wonder whether you defend this site to its haters.

Nobody is trying to "fix someone "over there"". Nobody cares about your posting on an MB hate site while claiming to be a Dr Harley fan. But please, do not come here trying to convince us that hate sites are beneficial to this one.

Right. I wasn't stupid.

Instead, I was INSANE.

So they strike again...

A poster came on yesterday trying to explain unmet needs as the most motivating factor in most affairs, and everyone started saying she was making excuses for the cheater. The poster spoke about LB and HNHN and she was getting roasted.

Now, the sight itself is not solely pushing one particular concept nor is it, to my knowledge, the creation of a particular psychologist. Most people there are just not educated enough in terms of the dynamics of affairs or they find one thing and close themselves off to anything else.

There's no reason why another site should support Dr Harley's concepts, and I think it's rather odd for that poster to go there trying to push them. I also don't understand why you are puzzling about posts on another site here.

You could always recommend a poster to this forum over there, if you wouldn't be breaking their terms of service. Other than that: they are another site! Not supporting MB is what they do!

Good for that poster to at least try to educate people on the dynamics of an affair! If the info made its way to at least one hurting poster it wasn't in vain.

Yeah, I know. Its just amazing that people get good advice and can't accept it. The book HNHN is spoke of often by many. I'm now at the point where I think I might simply retire from that site. Its frustrating when you want to help and you can't due to ignorance.

One thing I did like about the site, though, is they have some really comical threads. REALLY, REALLY COMICAL.

That's just silly.
I do not know who this person is, but they got their butt kicked in a debate.
It is an attempt at saving face to claim, "I got run off." Big Blue Meanies, y'all. (another Beatles reference, you see.)

I searched around and found this old post of mine from 2002.
A group had abandoned another affair discussion site and landed in MB land.
We were like a group of ETs. "We come in peace."
MB was very welcoming.
And, as much as I thought I understood MB (since I registered 2 years earlier) I was ignorant to a large degree. I was especially ignorant about Plan A.




In 2000, I registered on MB under the name 'Yesterday' (a Beatles song for those of you without a proper Beatles education )

I started posting in earnest in 2002. I was able to change my posting name to Pepperband, same as it was on the ivillage/Redbook site.

I gradually educated myself about MB.
Especially Plan A.
Remember how we usually tell newbies that Plan A is counter-intuitive? It takes effort to really understand Plan A. Then, it takes something else (what?) to actually trust Plan A enough to launch a proper Plan A.

Over time, I understood Plan A.
But, I sometimes found it very difficult to help others understand Plan a quickly.
Sometimes, the BS is making so many errors following their intuition and/or their emotions... it's painful to watch.

I grew tired of reading the neophyte BS announce: "I am doing Plan A. I am acting nice." One after the next .... the same thing.

sheesh !

One day, I composed the carrot/stick list to such a "Plan nice" newbie.
I got such good response, I carried it out further.

Those of you who know me, realize that I often work things out for myself when I post to others.

The more I explained Plan A to others .... the clearer my understanding of Plan A.

This did not come overnight.


"Plan nice" .... is not Plan A.
Nor is "Plan Lovebust" Plan A.

I think it is asking a LOT of newbies to TRUST Plan A. Which, we all agree, is counter-intuitive.

I think now, the real neat thing would be to develop an understanding of what it takes for the newbie BS to TRUST Plan A. Before they finish reading SAA.

Do we appeal to the intellect? To the heart?
Do we bark commands?

Do we simply ask them to trust us?

I donno.
I've got The Muppets working on it.

whatevah!


What has always amazed me about the carrot and the stick post is how ACCURATE it was even though Dr Harley had not done a good job, at that time, of explaining his concepts.[on exposure for example] We had heard of exposure from those who counseled directly with the Harleys but there were conflicting stories. Harley would talk about it on the radio and I found out after 2007, there were numerous posts about it on the private forum.

We were to learn later that Dr Harley had advocated exposure ALL ALONG. Your carrot and stick was given even more credence when Dr Harley wrote his exposure article and rewrote HNHN to include it. Your post helped many, many people over the years and continues to help today.

Did you know Pennylane is a Beatles song?

I'm not sure when this was written.

What are Plan A & Plan B ?

I had great difficulty with Plan A when I arrived on MB.
Like yourself, Pennylane , I never did Plan A.
I had to study and put the pieces together in a way that that made sense to me.

Once it made sense to me, I became a huge advocate.

Anyone got ideas?

MBers who were convinced Plan A would be a good idea .... what was your process?
How did you overcome your instincts and/or your doubts?

He rewrote it in 2011. He wrote the exposure newsletter in October of 2009 and rewrote HNHN to include exposure in 2010.


Same here. I am a huge advocate of Plan A for OTHER PEOPLE. If faced with that problem again, I would not stay in the marriage. I would go straight to Plan FU. I don't have the personality to do Plan A.