What did we do to recover?

Well, he did quit his job after an agonizing 4 months... I really wish I'd known about MB. That is where the OW were.

He also quit the ministry. We have EP in place. (No lunches or riding alone with someone of the opposite sex, we have an internet filter on our computer, we share our passwords)

He has asked for forgiveness and has worked to regain my trust. I do trust him. I'll probably always walk with my eyes wide open, but I trust him.

Anointed,

Thanks for the clarification. I hope I didn't offend you. A lot of the things you are saying are things my WW said to me during her A, and while they were all true and things I needed to work on (still do), she never seemed to have a problem with them (or at least never said anything) until her A started.

Actually, your husband sounds a lot like me. If this is true, he probably doesn't know how to communicate his opinions without sounding critical and judgmental. When I do this, my wife gives me a generic "stop being a jerk" or "stop being critical" and I have no idea what this means. I want to express my opinion and have it heard (EN C), but was rejected and have no idea how to do better next time. In my case, the not knowing how to do better next time is incredibly frustrating and makes it much more difficult to not AO.

Can I suggest giving him much more specific ways in which to communicate. For example, it sounds like you have a real problem with the word "should" and my wife had the same complaint. Once we dug this out, we came up with the phrase "I wish you would have" instead of "you should have". To me these mean basically the same thing, but to my wife they are worlds apart and once I knew this I was happy to use it (I still slip up sometimes, but I try).

I know it is difficult in the moment, but I think you may have much better results if you can figure out exactly what he does that makes you feel criticized (a specific word, a look, a tone of voice, etc.) and give him an alternative.

No more, it's super easy to stop sounding critical and judgmental. I just treated my ex as he was a coworker, how would I speak to him then? Sad to think that until then that at times I treated the man I had taken vows to love, honor, and cherish with less respect than my coworkers. You can act better for the sake of the marriage (Buyer's state of mind, working towards the best long-term outcome) even when you're not feeling it for your W(renter's state of mind, willing to gain at her expense).

Do you think this would work for you?

Nomoreplease,

I do not believe my husband tries to have DJ on purpose. I can try to be more specific.

Thanks.

I asked my husband to read my thread again last night, and he did. He is not happy with me.

He said I criticized him a lot , and he really doesn't like talk of exposure. He says he has several counselors backing him that it's not a good idea at this point.

It would be so nice to hear him apologize to our 2 families and ask forgiveness. It would help me so much in my recovery.

He didn't sound willing to post here since he has nothing to prove to a bunch of strangers on the Internet. I welcome his side of the story. He says I am much worse about AO than he is. That is probably true. When he does have them, they are big ones.

I'm tired.

Dear Mr. Anointed,

Your wife's love busters are no excuse for yours. This is a way of deflecting attention from the problems that you are causing for her.

When you have an angry outburst, you are insane. It is a truly irrational response: a problem gets difficult, and you feel you can't handle it, so you go insane, which makes the problem worse.

Suppose the problem is that your wife is having angry outbursts. She is insane. Okay, then you going insane, too, will not help that at all. It will only make the problem worse.

If you have angry outbursts at all, please get help for them. Get help from a trained counselor who believes that angry outbursts can be ELIMINATED and knows which anger management techniques are effective and which are not.

Please take a listen to Dr. Harley's radio program in the archives. He talks about angry outbursts all the time. He had an anger problem himself, and he eliminated angry outbursts. He knows how to do it.

Here is a great example program from Dr. Harley explaining the basics of anger management:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=238

But really it is intensely effect to listen to him say it over and over, in different contexts.

The only person qualified in saying how bad an AO is is the victim of the AO.

Hi Anointed, I have only read this page so I might be missing something, but in regards to exposure, it is a good idea to tell both families. Dr Harley does recommend this regardless of the status of the affair. I am not sure why your husband would be resistant to this. Being upset about exposure is typically a sign of the FOG. I can understand why he would have been upset right after the affairs, but I am mystified about why he would be resistant NOW since he has repented for his affairs.

His affairs were the worst thing that ever happened to you. They almost destroyed your marriage. So telling your family gives you the support you need. The more people who know the more people to hold him accountable. That is a good thing, not a bad thing.

I found a couple of posts by Dr Harley, a clinical psychologist with 40 years specializing in infidelity and founder of Marriage Builders [hardly some "stranger on the internet"] that address this:

here

here

And then Dr Harley's newsletter about exposure: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2266646#Post2266646

It is definitely something that should be discussed and agreed upon between you, but his reluctance to do this is troubling to me, to be honest. Its not like he has something to be embarrassed about since he has repented. It would bring you relief and it would help others hold him accountable.

I could not agree more and have found little support for this amongst the counselors we have seen.

Most "counselors" don't specialize in infidelity, though. Dr Harley does. He is a credentialed, published clinical psychologist who is an expert in this field. Very few counselors have even a basic understanding of the dynamics of infidelity, much less how to recover from it. Keep in mind that the marriage counseling discipline has an 84% failure rate. They don't have any idea what they are doing.

Sounds like he found some people to tell him what he wants to hear.

Regardless of what any counselor has told him, this alone is a VERY good reason for him to come clean with your 2 families.


Would he be willing to call or write Dr. Harley himself, the BEST marriage counselor in the country who has saved thousands of marriages?

I'm wondering if all these years of "recovery" have been for nothing. He is focused on himself about exposure, and I don't understand why he won't humble himself. I feel so worthless.

I don't see why he wouldn't be willing to talk to dr Harley. He is usually pretty open to learning new things. I'm not sure, but I think he's scared I'm doing this out of spite to hurt him.

My whole life I have had the habit of setting the big things to the side that bother me because it is "easier". It is obviously to the contrary.

It would be wonderful if he would talk to Dr. Harley. Dr. Harley is not going to suggest to him that he do something for you out of spite or meanness.

But it wouldn't hurt him. That is just the thing. It is not spiteful or hurtful so he wouldn't think that unless he is still foggy. And he surely can't be foggy after all this time.

He read all of your posts tonight and couldn't disagree more...especially with you MelodyLane. I'm very discouraged.

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I told him when I tried to make excuses for my poor behavior on this forum, I was ripped to shreds. (*as well I should be, and I'm very grateful for that.)

Read through your thread and wasn't going to reply until I saw this, which piqued my interest. Ripped to shreds? The folks here have gone out of their way to word what they wrote in very soft terms so you wouldn't melt. Your whole thread is chock full of over the top hyperbole like this. Don't worry, ain't gonna rip you to shreds, or devastate you, or even be mean. What I am going to do, and probably fail at it, is to give you another guys point of view since EnlightenedEx didn't seem to make any headway.

First off, I'll say that your situation isn't hopeless yet, your husband is still talking to you even though he doesn't seem to have anything really contructive to say to you, and vice versa. I'll be honest when I say that I doubt very much that your husband has read this thread, if I was your husband, believe me I'd have a lot to say on this forum and he doesn't seem to be the shy type, right?

How I am a martyr

These are snippets taken from your posts that paint you as the long suffering spouse of an unworthy man.

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I cried so much last night realizing how much I'm going to have to die to myself to respond properly in the face of pain.

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guess what I'm trying to say is that I need to respond with grace even when the pain is unbearable.

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Not being a victim takes heart and a backbone

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Recently I got so discouraged with my husband's frustration with God, that I told him I was unable to shoulder the burden of carrying him in his walk with Christ any longer. It was a tough conversation, and I had an AO at the end. I'm pretty sure I was disrespectful too.

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I just want some acknowledgement for the pain I suffered! I even have a thread on here about it I think. I don't guess I need people to say "oh you poor thing" but I've been through HELL dang it! And I want to say I've survived!

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Last night I told him that even though we were both sad that I'd like to meet his need for SF.

How I am a victim/My attempts at making you feel sorry for me

I wish I had a dollar for every safe, hurt, and fear in your thread.

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I'm so discouraged and hurt.

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*sigh*

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I'm out here drowning

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and I'm sure it's just my pride getting in the way. I don't feel safe to express my feelings.

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And I just opened the oven door to find all my hard work was left in the oven overnight! What a day!

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Is that right? And now what? I get to have my feelings, right? My stomach hurts, and I have a lump in my throat like I've done something wrong.

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I've felt so hurt and unsure for many years as I've brought up this stuff before but didn't have the terminology to explain myself

.

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In the past the thought of being intimate while he's upset with me made me feel degraded. There has been a lot of fear.

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Okay. I've still been quite frightened but I'm willing to talk to him.

T

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Throughout our marriage I have felt extremely criticized for just about everything I did. I have been walking on eggshells all along and have not felt safe at all.

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I'm learning to do things I've never done before (out of fear),

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I understand that little things like this shouldn't mean the end of the world, but yet, here I am typing as tears roll down my face.

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Just the thought of pointing my finger directly at him like that scares the crap out of me. I've done it many times in the past, but now that I'm being vulnerable and don't have my weapons of retaliation I am terrified of saying this.

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Have you ever seen an armadillo curled up in a ball to protect itself? That's how I feel. I hope my armor is strong enough.

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I don't understand why he won't humble himself. I feel so worthless.

How I have an excuse for not doing what i am asking him to do

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He did come home from lunch today and say that his favorite team IS playing tonight, so he'd like to read during lunch. I told him that it's hard to concentrate when the two year old is awake (she's VERY loud!) Later on I did thank him for trying to make time for it.

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He says I contradict myself by doing the things I ask him not to do. I have always asked alllllll these years to please be careful how he words things. This is not enough direction, I see, and we are planning to focus on reading Lovebusters this week. (we have been overwhelmed with a family wedding)

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These last few weeks have been packed with activity, so I've not been doing anything productive regarding our marriage.

And my favorite, I guess Prisca got a little taste of how you relate when someone is telling you shoulda/woulda/coulda:

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This is good Prisca. I've never thought of AO that way. We were all eating dinner, and he was ranting in the kitchen. So, I should just get up and bring my 12, 10, and 2 year old where? They had to leave in about 10 minutes and needed to finish dinner! Just need some thinking outside the box for future reference since our schedule is so tight on most weekdays.

Discussion


You want to have unlimited texting but you don�t feel you have to carry the phone at all times, even though you agreed to take business calls. This is not a criticism of you, this is him asking why should he spend extra money for something that you don�t really need, especially since you have already acknowledged that you are short of funds and angry about it because you can�t be a SAHM. And everyone texting you isn't sharing your intimate feelings. But htis seems to be a common occurrence throughout your entire thread, and that is your husband doesn't have the right to disagree or argue any point at all with you. No matter what he says or does he is wrong. I really wonder just how effective the advice here is going to be given your inability to really listen to any contrary opinions and your refusal to even try out anything here. WAIT!! Hold that thought - I know, you've been busy.

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We have never seen a relationship like Dr Harley describes, and we are Christians who grew up in Christian homes!

I guess that being a Christian makes you feel like you are somewhat special and that your marriage should be different than everyone else's? I am not a Christian, wouldn't want to be one, and yet I don't have any of the contempt or scorn for my wife that the two of you display everyday for each other. Being Christian does not mean you are above the problems that everyone else has.

You want him to be your spiritual leader yet your entire thread is how you don�t like much of anything your husband has to say since you don�t agree with it anyway and how he�s not the boss of you anyway. How can he lead you anywhere when he can't even talk to you without you finding fault with what he said?

You see that except for the tag team of Markos/Prisca and EnlightenedEx, that no other guys have replied to your thread. Aren't you curious at to why that is? If your account is indeed accurate about how your husband talks to you, it leaves one wondering was he always this way or has it just gotten this bad over the years? I would have stopped talking to you a long time ago because it just doesn't register with you that you don't really care about anyone else's opinion except your own. I don't think that you are overly sensitive like you claim, I think that you give a lot better than you can get, you can dish it out like no tomorrow. All of the hyperbole and the fear and vulnerability and curled up armadillo stuff started after people started replying to you. At the beginning of your thread you began with how you both are guilty of AO's and admitted you did even more than your husband; then when folks started posting replies that were slanted towards you needing to have some give or take when dealing with your husband that the fear and oh woe is me stuff started appearing. And in the rare occasions that you had something remotely positive about your husband we see little examples that he does acknowledge that he is wrong and is willing to work with you. he apologizes for making you upset, is willing to read the materials you want, albeit at lunch and not during the game, and even years after the affair is STILL taking your feelings into acount by mainatining EPs like telling you about business meetings. That business meeting by the way, was with men and women, and was a working lunch that he had told you about. Don't understand why it would be something that he couldn't attend.

In closing I would like to ask you, why do you want to stay married to your husband? You don't like him very much, don't really have anything to say about any good qualities he may have, you don't value his opinion on any subject, in fact, just the opposite, and you don't really want to be intimate with him at all, and yes, that includes sex. If I were to take your thread at face value, I would think that it was a deposition for a divorce case. Again, I will throw in this disclaimer that i am a guy, and I am going to not only observe things differently, but also interpret and discuss things differently than the ladies here. But since you are wanting to know how things could be different with your husband, how your marriage could change, perhaps you ought to reserve your comments back to me until you really take the time to read, really read, what I wrote here and then ask yourself is this REALLY how I am being perceived? because that is key, you may think you are projecting yourself one way when someone else sees you in an entirely different light. You do that and come on back to talk.

BTW, just in case your husband IS actually reading this, why don't you start your own thread there MrAnointed? Unless of course you can't take people being brutally honest with you and not afraid to call BS when they see it. You have a 50% stake in this mess and have work to do also.

Mr.Anointed,
Instead of reading what we say and getting angry with your wife over it, why don't you create your own account and we can have an honest discussion about the issue.

Even better, why don't you call Dr. Harley and talk to him about it? He's a trained physiologist with years of experience, the best marriage counselor in the country (having saved thousands of marriages from the brink of destruction), and he's not going to tell you to do something just out of spite or to be mean to you. Probably the best neutral 3rd party you can get.

Your wife's not happy, sir. I'm betting neither are you.

That can change.
Would you like it to?

She's drowning.
Would you like to be her hero?

americanjin,

Thanks for posting. I appreciate your time very much. I am open to what you are saying. I can see how I could be perceived as not caring about his point of view. I guess if I look hard at it, that would be true because I've been mostly concerned about how I feel when he talks to me.

I do think I have a victim mindset, and I'm working hard to find a better way of thinking. There is pain when there shouldn't be, I think.


No doubt. I can dish it. When I started learning to put the weapons down, I was left feeling incredibly vulnerable, and my feelings flooded to the surface. It was easier to be angry before rather than feel the pain. Lots of stuff has been coming up...past sexual abuse and trying to learn proper boundaries.

If I stand outside myself I can see all the whoa is me stuff. I want to be stronger than that.


I understand. Sure, he has these meetings quite a bit and usually there's no problem with them. I was triggered that day and was trying to be open and honest. It may have sounded like I was demanding he not go, but I really just wanted some affirmation and comfort for my trigger. I know I have a lot to work on.

I do welcome your input as I do Enlightened_Ex. I thought that I had taken his advice seriously, but I guess you don't see it that way. I am taking what you are saying seriously as well.

Why do I want to stay married to my husband?

I love him.
He's super smart and funny.
He is handsome and caring and is a great father to our kids.
He's involved in our community and likes to help other people.
He's a leader and can accomplish anything he sets his mind to.
He's helpful around the house and with the kids.
He's orderly and clean and thoughtful.

I could go on but I understand your point. He needs to hear the positive things just like I do. There have been times I've wanted to run away from the marriage because it has seemed like such a struggle for the both of us, but I know that is cowardly.

I realize that I have a lot of work to do on myself.

Please keep posting.

Enlightened_Ex, did you stop posting to me because you feel like I'm a lost cause, too? I'm trying.