Tom, brother... Now I know for certain you are Catholic, because you exhibit Catholic guilt! (Coming from a very large Catholic family, its a familiar thing)

Now, I'm not practicing myself, but one thing I can't shake is the example my grandfather set forth for our family; quiet faith, dignity, and service to others.

That makes at least 3 who are not offended, sir. Hang your head on this matter no more.

Well, Tom... I'm watching your story unfold! Definitely a probable happening.

Oh, Tom - I didn't think you were proselytizing. (I'd let you know ) I think it's fine to have a belief system that helps a person navigate Life. I'm glad to see yours is a comfort to you. Especially now, what with the football game and all. Stay well, friend.

Aunt Pep, I completely agree about hookers. Your view of porn, on the other hand, I only partially agree with.

It all depends on the viewer. I think of porn like the Food Network. Some people will watch it while they stuff their faces and gain several hundred pounds...and some will watch it for ideas on how they can spice up chicken breast. No pun intended.

People don't watch porn to study and learn, as they would a documentary. People watch porn and masturbate to it.

Masturbation is a sexual experience that excludes your spouse. We should not have sexual experiences that exclude our spouses.

They also watch slim, flat-bellied, long-legged, big-but-firm-breasted 17 year-old girls, and tall, hunky, oiled, ripped, chiseled young men, and then sometime later have sex with their spouse. There has got to be a contrast effect which over the long term is disastrous.

The day I wrote the first post I was mad as hell at a particular WH posting rot about his BW.

Now, I can't even recall who it was !


I do recall he thought his penis was gilded with gold leaf, when it was actually rusty.
(waiting for the mod edit .... )

Rusty and diseased.

The WH was a Brit. There aren't many of us here, and he did us no favours at all!

The Love Bank is a subconscious phenomenon that operates without any respect to what your conscious intentions are, so the contrast effect will still happen.

It's like the difference between people who go to lunch with someone of the opposite sex as a date, and people who go "not as a date." There is a difference in their conscious intentions. But the Love Bank doesn't operate that way: it is subconscious, and does its work regardless of what your intentions are.

Markos ...??????

Ruritania ????????????

Yes they do, and yes they do.



I think this is a highly subjective statement. If that is your belief, more power to you. There are certain circumstances where masturbation is cheating, but in my opinion it only occurs when there is personal interaction with another person. Watching some porn star or looking at a magazine is not adultery.

Excessive masturbating could certainly harm your sex life with your spouse, but the opinion that it is cheating is a fringe viewpoint on the far end of the spectrum. I can certainly understand how "real" infidelity could drive a person to that opinion, though.

You're the first one to notice.

Any couple with decent communication will address the "Do you mind if I masturbate without you?" question early in the relationship, anyway.

I learned to do it without porn.
Somehow, my parents did too.
Cooking, I was taught.

Yes, you learned to cook, and I'm sure Grandma Pep was a wonderful cook...but you couldn't learn one thing from the Food Network? Really?

I completely get the "porn is a sin" argument, even if I don't agree. I just think the "porn is adultery" argument doesn't hold water. If you watch porn with your spouse, is that a threesome? Foursome? An all-out orgy?

I'm about as militantly anti-infidelity as any person you'll ever see, by the way.

Well, I'm not expressing my "highly subjective" viewpoint, but the advice of Dr Harley, which I now follow in my marriage. Dr Harley gives his advice after having observed the destructive effects of pornography on marriages. It may be that his observation is "a fringe viewpoint of the far end of the spectrum", but so many marriages are unsuccessful that the spectrum isn't a very useful place to look for advice on successful marriage.

Perhaps you should take up your disagreements with Dr Harley directly. And BTW, I didn't use the terms "cheating' or "adultery".

Anyway, this is what he says:

What's wrong with a married man viewing pornography now and then?

Most men find naked women to be sexually arousing. It can vary from being mildly stimulating (entertaining) to very stimulating (foreplay). In that sense, it's normal for most men to enjoy, and hence, want to view pornography.

The same can be said of a man touching a woman's body, particularly her breasts, butt, or crotch. But we have strict laws against such behavior unless an adult woman gives clear permission. A woman is regarded as harmed if a man touches her sexually without her consent. Notice that our laws do not consider a man to be harmed if he touches a woman, with or without her consent. That's because there is no convincing evidence that he has been harmed.

Laws against pornography are limited to images of minors because we assume that they are not mature enough to give their permission to be photographed, and are thereby harmed when their images are made public. Naked images of adult women who freely agree to being filmed or photographed are not illegal because the law assumes she is not harmed. If it's through coercion, she is considered to be harmed and it's illegal. Again, the law never assumes that a man is harmed by looking at such images. No one has produced convincing evidence that viewing pornography actually harms the viewer (I'm aware that there are those who feel that they have such evidence, but so far, neither legislatures nor the courts have agreed with them).

So as long as a man views pornographic images of adult women who freely give their consent, what's the fuss all about? The most commonly expressed problem with pornography is given by wives. They see it as a form of infidelity, with their husbands having a sexual experience outside of their marriage. And I believe that they're right. Pornography represents a sexual experience to men that is with someone other than their wives.

I'd be opposed to a particular husband viewing pornography if there was absolutely nothing wrong with it except that it made his wife feel uncomfortable. Any violation of the Policy of Joint Agreement should be avoided. But there are reasons to avoid it, even when a wife enthusiastically agrees to it. One of the most important is known as the "contrast effect."

If you compare one sexual experience with another, the more stimulating experience will make the less stimulating experience seem boring in comparison. If you compare one naked woman with another, the one who's more physically attractive will make the less physically attractive woman appear to be unattractive. That's why I caution men to avoid pornography because it's unfair to his wife to be compared to an 18-year-old girl who has been specially selected for her physical assets.

Most wives know that I'm correct in my analysis. They don't want their naked body to be compared with an 18-year-old's naked body. And they don't want their husbands to be fantasizing about what it would be like having sex with that 18-year-old. They view such fantasies as unfaithfulness.

The same can be said of husbands touching other women inappropriately, even if they have the woman's permission to do so. Most wives feel terribly threatened by such behavior.

Wanting to view pornography, and enjoying it when they do, is normal for men, and not usually a sexual addiction. But most wives do not, and should not, accept it. I feel that it greatly diminishes the value and purpose of marital sex.

What is Sexual Addiction?

I didn't make either of those arguments.

Yup. Nothing wrong with porn. Keep watching it. If/when it gets bad enough that you can't even get it up when you have a flesh and blood woman in the bed next to you, don't say I didn't tell ya so.

We aren't dealing with, nor do I believe we are we talking about, a Playboy stuffed under the mattress.

We are talking about and endless buffet of virtual flesh that is available at high speed, in high definition, low fidelity, high speed, low profile, low class, low resistance.

However smart we are, our brains are dumb. For men, in the simplest biological sense, our brains recognize ejaculation as a successful attempt to mate. It recognizes each new video/"starlet" as a novel "mating opportunity." No matter how much smarter than that we are, this is how our brain recognizes these things, and the impulse is VERY strong - I would say putting a lot of street drugs to shame. Novelty is hardwired into our brains (another way we are All Wired for Affairs).

I'll save my... er... nevermind. TMI.

Dr. Harley does, right here:


I wouldn't claim to know more than Dr. Harley, but this opinion is a fringe belief. He also believes that a person can't be satisfied by a woman once they've masturbated to more attractive women. This is strictly opinion, and based on no hard data.

Some people can gamble and be fine. Some people can't handle it, and lose everything. Porn, in my opinion, is no different.