Self confidence?

What are you talking about?

Waywards have no problem with self confidence! They have two people after them and they think they can still walk back into a marriage if they get bored. Thats so confident its dumb.

Geting back to the point - WHEN is the polygraph scheduled for?

Allalon, No need for apology, I appreciate what you said, Thanks Meggy I see I did finally get the DNA issue out of the way. I will not respond to another post about it.

AS for selling items to pay for a poly, I cannot get that to sink in here. I do not sell any of the items I have purchased for my W, despite what she did to our marriage. We purchased the motorcycle because she wanted to go riding with me as I love motorcycle riding. I cannot see selling any guns ever, if you are a gun collector you would understand, if you sell it you will never get it back. I have guns that have been handed down for over many generations in my family.
I cannot let her sell a gun. To advertise and sell an item could take 2 weeks to only get bottom dollar, only to achieve 1 week sooner on the poly. For that matter we have the funds in the bank, we have a credit card or two we could put it on, I don't operate like that, even when the chips are down. I have to maintain financial stability, we will have money to burn (poly is burning money IMO)in two weeks. I can handle a couple of weeks to find out if this marriage is worth saving, I've made it 15 years with her.

Marcos,
I am here to get as much advise as I can to best get through this and start on the correct path. I have read many posts and lots of advise. I am 100% in on the MB plan and we are starting to work on all of it. There is a lot and PE is one we have read and picked apart to eliminate any confusion. You are correct in the fact that I made some mistakes;

1. I accepted her flirtation as being part of her personality.
2. I accepted her inability to recognize someone who doesn't care for her, as she would try her best to MAKE them like her and continue a conversation. She strives way to much to get people to like her!
3. I accepted her inability to remove herself from other men who would flirt with her, thinking that just makes her feel good let her have her moment.
4. I accepted and encouraged her friendship with OM despite all the signs their friendship was getting too close.
5. I completely lost sight of what we learned, and ignored the good sense that was instilled in me by MB 10 years ago.

We do need to take the MB principals to heart, and we are working at it. She has much more work, as she needs to work on the respect and self confidence, as that is the core of her problem, IMO. I could be wrong (you all will let me know) You all can list the other items like absolutely no boundaries etc, etc.

Sem, recovering from an affair means to implement permanent behavior changes that would prevent another affair. That has never happened. The fact that she pursues men, flirts with them and is able to conduct the secret second life necessary for an affair means that the MB concepts for recovering an affair have never been implemented.

That is what markos means when he suggests that this time you should use the MB recovery plan. There is a very strict path to recovery and I hope you take it this time.

Flirting, for example, is obviously not conducive to recovery and is destructive to marriage. I agree she has self respect issues for very obvious reasons. That is a RESULT of acting disrespectfully. And she can't have confidence if she is unreliable. There is nothing here to be confident about.

Reading books and trying to "work" on self confidence is a big waste of time. She will naturally feel better about herself when she starts stepping up and doing what's right for you and your family. A good place to start would be to put pecautions into place so that another affair NEVER happens again.

#1 - Commitment to give up her Secret Second Life and to become radically honest, transparency, accounting for all of her time. (the only way you are going to know if she is really commited to this is to have her take the poly. Enough excuses. Just schedule it already, even if you schedule it for after the holidays.)

#2 ~ Implement Extrardinary Precautions. Such as spend all of your free time together, no nights apart, no opposite sex friendships, eliminate all independent behavior, etc etc etc. You need to look at ALL of the conditions that were involved in her affairs and eliminate them. This cannot be emphasized enough due to the fact that she has had SO MANY affairs.





I am going to be very honest with you, when I see a serial cheater on here and they HAVE NOT:

admitted that (a) they have a problem with honesty and (b) are committed to eliminating their secret second life

AND

discussed specific changes they are committed to making in their behavior to protect their spouse from yet ANOTHER affair

Senn, when I came to Marriage Builders, I had an anger problem.

I spent a long time "working" on it.

Working was code for nothing changing.

I am afraid that your wife is going to "work" on things for a long time, and in the meantime, because nothing has changed, you are going to go through severe trauma.

We gave your wife information to read about Extraordinary Precautions last week. These need to be implemented now, not "worked" on for weeks. We have seen no signs that she has done anything. She's asked where she can read about Extraordinary Precautions, though.

I'm sorry to tell you, but it does not look good.

It's becoming obvious that you don't want the truth, Senn. You want to get your wife to read some books and think about her issues but YOU don't want to know what's really happened.

There's just no other reason to make excuses and put off getting the truth.

Maybe you know on some level that she's going to blow the poly or you will find out much more than you can handle and this house of cards you've built with all this real estate and financial pressure will come tumbling down.

Very sad.

Senn, two things I strongly encourage you to do: read the threads of other people, those whose marriages recovered, and those who did not. and contact Dr. Harley directly on his radio program (link at the top of the page).

One thing I see over and over in a lot of threads here is this stubborn desire to keep things the way they've always been instead of acknowledging that life has changed forever due to adultery, lies and betrayal.

Adjustments need to be made on all levels and there needs to be a willingness to explore this new, emerging reality with all the facts at hand.

When we cling to what we have (houses, motorcycles, stuff, ideas about what we want and who we think we are) life gets very painful quickly. You are putting off the work that needs to be done to buy presents and pretend that all is well.

What will life look like next year if you put off the work that's needed now? If you think you're preserving something by putting off getting the truth, you will be shocked to discover that you are hastening your own destruction.

I would sell her stuff in a flash to get moving forward with this and if she had any salt in her, she'd do it herself instead of waiting for you since you seem terrified to take a step forward.

Senn, from your post(s) I can see 2 things: the things that you CANNOT/WON'T DO and the things that WE CAN DO. And from your WW's post I can see this "What do you ALL want from me!-attitude".

I haven't seen NC requirement from your part NOR your wife's willingness to write a NC letter, only that she hasn't been in contact with her last OM over a month or so. Nor have I seen HOW she will keep the NC for life. There are OMs out there who CAN still contact her.
I haven't seen your requirement to let other OMWs to know what your WW has been doing over the years NOR have I seen her willingness to let them know. There are other families there who have absolutely no idea what she has done to them.
I haven't seen your list of requirements for recovery NOR have I seen your wife to volunteer her list of EP's. And day follows another day where she is not practising them. Her wayward life continues to be a wayward life because nothing has changed IN PRINCIPLE.
I haven't seen your requirement of total honesty and transparency NOR have we seen her willingness to become an honest person. HOW she will be held accountable for the rest of her life? Another day goes by where, for example, she hasn't called you about her sudden change of plans which behaviour ALLOWS her to continue her independent lifestyle.

And there she wonders "what she is not seeing"... I'm sorry to say but you are both blindfolded by thick fog.

The situation you are in REQUIRES a complete turn in your thinking, principles, attitudes, way of life, the ways you "operate".

MB is like school with assignments. You are either doing them or not, this is completely behavioural. You can move to another assignment only if the previous one is completed and well-learned.

So, what is your assignment for today and tomorrow? What is your WW's?
_____

I cannot respond to each of you, you all have good/valid points.

You are correct, I am scared to death about the poly! I wholeheartedly want this marriage to work, but cannot continue without total honesty. I feel the time needed to acquire the funds gives her plenty of time to tell me everything, I now feel she has and am ready, or at minimum have reached a stalemate and will not get any more info until poly day.
As for preserving my way of life, I cannot see destroying my way of life until I have decided to end the marriage. I am smart enough to know that if we destroy ourselfs financially, that will only be one more thing that may destroy our marriage.

My WW is no different than any other WW when they first come her, she is defensive, and unable to be honest, etc etc. She is comming around, she is practicing these things. We have a lenghty descussion on these things every morning and evening. She has removed all phone #s of men on her phone. We have instilled the rule of absolutely no phone calls to unrecognized #s and if there is, she must document them. She is willing to do anything and has been improving every day. We are at a point of getting past the chaos of descovery and getting organized, and moving into taking the path to recovery. I know we don't post all of our progress, but we are making progress.

As for the working on her self confidence and respect issues. I see your point, we will put that on a back burner and focus on MB principals.

Change her phone number and block OMs numbers there.

No one is saying your should actively destroy your way of life, just saying that you need to get your head around the fact that the game changed. It sucks and you're not the one who changed it but you have to get into playing with the new information you have.

If you can't face the total truth then you are leaving yourself incredibly vulnerable and your world WILL be destroyed. By not taking action now, you are hastening the potential for total destruction.

Your wife seems content to let you lead here. This seems like a red flag to me. Why can't she grab the bull by the horns and help you get the truth? If that means selling something or getting you to front the money for the poly NOW, she should do that but she's not.

She's letting you lead and you in some ways are not in a position do to do due to your own fear and pain.

Push her, man! Push her and yourself. The sooner you get all the fact, the sooner you can really start to heal this thing!!

She has a very cushy situation here because you are not asking her to do much of anything. She can just defer to you and say things like "well I can't do this because Senn says a, b, c." Lucky wayward!

And I agree with Indie, it's not a lack of self esteem at play here...rather it's overblown ego and entitlement that has led her into this bad behavior. She thinks she DESERVES to be adored and petted by many. You reinforce that by letting her keep her toys and putting off the poly and letting her sit there until you decide it's time.

Are you going to be hunting and riding motorcycles next year at this time or going through a brutal divorce? You are repressing your rage and other feelings because it's just too awful to think that she might have been cheating more often and longer than you realized. RIP THE BAND AID OFF and get yourself to the next step in the healing process.

Sem, I am confused about what you mean by this. Your way of life has allowed her the freedom to chase men and cause great harm to your marriage, the marriages of others and your children's family.. It is that destructive lifestyle that must be destroyed. Can you be specific in what you mean?



She is very different from other WW's in that this is not her first rodeo, she is a serial cheater who is addicted to cheating, rather than a specific OM. She also KNOWS very well the effect her affairs have on you. And she doesn't care. Her affairs are not a result of the FOG, they are a result of a destructive lifestyle and a lack of empathy.

I keep pushing for the poly but what I'm really pushing for is for you to see where you're at and who you're married to. Melody and Pepperband are more articulate than me.

You've been in a fog about who your wife is as a partner and a mother. I get it that it's excruciating to wake up to the reality of her selfish, destructive behavior but what is the alternative?

Pretending it isn't so?

Where is your righteous anger? Get in touch with that and let it help you take action. Hoping it will all go away or stay the same isn't going to work anymore. Gt tough with her for goodness sakes! She is getting off so easy right now, simply because you want to keep things the same at all cost. Keeping things the same ain't gonna work!!

You all are correct. As with any BS, you desire honesty yet don't want to hear the cold truth. My imaginary world was stripped away and I am settling in with the cold truth. I don't want to believe there are possibly other A's, which is a big possibility. I have talked until I was blue on this issue and damanded total honesty. I have tried everything I could to get the truth and have conceded to the fact that we now have nothing left but the poly. She is either stonewalling or is being completely honest, only she and God know at this point.

Yes, I am affraid that the poly may be the end, but I will not move on with this marriage unless she passes it. Dragging my feet is a very real problem, but I don't want to be to hasty, I want her to give me the truth because it is the right thing to do, not because she feels forced into it.

I am writing a rough draft on questions and would like some input. I had a bad experience with the poly when I was younger and have a good basic understanding as to how they work. I failed a poly when I was hired on the police force, 9 fail out of 10 basic questions, I demanded they allow me to pay out of pocket and take it again. I passed the second time with 9 pass out of 10, the only one I failed the second time was the one I passed the first. I did get hired after that, and it did put doubt in the recuitment officer about the validity and reliability of the poly- me too. There is a reason they cannot be used in court. They aren't as reliable as some might think, and are more prone to fail based on anxiety rather than deception. I know based on WW experience through our marriage, she will more than likely fail based on the incidents I know about, more so, than those I don't. How I can prevent that in the questions I ask will be imparitive! As you can imagine, I feel the poly may lead to the total destruction of this marriage, if she is lying or not, and that is very scary!

Melody,
My way of life, in how I had put no restrictions on WW, and how I had ignorant blind trust in WW and OM was what led to my situation. You are correct, our actions or lack of, and our unwillingness to continue instilling MB concepts in our marriage are what led us down this road. Not my possessions or my finances. I am optomistic, and have full faith that WE can make our marriage work and do not want to risk losing what I have worked for in fact seeking. We will do a poly in approximately 2 1/2 weeks, and can wait until then, assuming we get our bonuses. It sucks but I can manage that. I don't like "counting my eggs before they hatch" or relying on a credit card to pay for things. If I cannot afford something I don't buy it, that would be irresponsible, and as you all have preached here " you must set standards in your life and live by them", I do financially.
I know you may pick that last statement apart, however, I have set my own standards and have lived by them. I have been honest and faithfull. I am a pushover and have allowed the standards I set on my W 10 years ago slide and am now realizing that was a huge mistake, and if it all works out will never happen again.

Your WW, like my STBX, was educated in:

~ how painful affairs are to BSs
~ how destructive independent behavior and dishonesty is to the M
~ how to protect the M from another A

She still choose to continue to cheat, even after finding MB and having all the tools to turn this around at her disposal.

This was exactly what I asked Dr Harley about when I talked to him about my STBX....because it disturbed me so much. "How can I have any hope my WH is really going to GET it and give up his SSL if he already knew all about MB and how destructive infidelity is but still did this to me again?"

His answer was basically: Stopping him from going after women is going to be a real trick and you have to ELIMINATE all OPPORTUNITY for an affair.

I believe the same is true for your WW. I hope you realize that she is not an "average" WW and it is going to take RADICAL changes in your lifestyle to turn this around.

An unwillingness to sell a gun in order to have her take the poly is a to me that you are not understanding this...at all.

Exactly!