Sugar,
My opinion about the way this board is run, has very little significance, that is clear and makes sense to me.

I spoke up and told you what I thought. It came off bad as I was not a happy camper that night. I explained myself and apologized for how it sounded. My opinion did not change, but as it has obviously hurt some feelings (not my intentions) I apologize.

As for disrespecting me for an opinion you do not agree with, I don't know what to say other than I have tried very hard to be respectful to every poster here, even if I don't agree with the advice they give. I do know they had my best interest in mind and again I appreciate your help

OK, Senn so what ARE these EPs? List them out please. Under each one describe how they are being implemented - i.e. what action is being taken to cement them in place. You will probably get valuable feedback in how to tweak them into a proper plan.

No more distractions or opinions on how MB vets give advice ok? People who are drowning need to swim and catch the lifeline, not critique the lifesavers.

Senn, IF my H and me took our situation with "kids gloves" we would be divorced by now for 2 yrs. Truth isn't killing anybody, lies are. What kind of a term is kids gloves anyway, your term of whitewashing things, turning away from the situation, self-deception?

The truth is Senn, I need to pull back to work on my own stuff.

I got problems over here and have been spending time advising others (and hiding from my own stuff) while my marriage/family could use some attention and major application of MB principles.

I was not compassionate with Yazu and I feel bad about it. She didn't ask for compassion or understanding though, she simply asked "should I run." In fact, I felt like her post was kind of clinical. There weren't a lot of reference to being devastated, wrecked, etc. I responded in the tone that I felt she was posting from.

I would run if I were her but I'm a run away type...that's part of my problem. I want to run away from my own work at repairing and improving my marriage/myself.

I see myself in you (although I am the WW in my sitch). I am not taking enough action and it's starting to cause a lot of frustration for me internally. I'm glad I could help a bit. I really do wish you the best!!

FOLLOW THE ADVICE OF THE VETS HERE. They will not lead you astray. Don't waste time!!

ps. sorry about the thread jack!
ENOUGH ABOUT THIS ZAZU/HEART/WHATEVER stuff!!

I have taken my beating, have apologized. Melody, No position to post on others thread does equal no position to be critical of your efforts her. I digress.

I took a vacation day from work for this, and deserve the bashing. I hope you all will forgive me.

"Kid gloves" is a term I picked up when I was a Police Officer in Denver (we would normally wear leather gloves for scumbags). It means telling a person, who is going through a very hard time, the " hard truth" without being a norm [censored] cop. I never thought about where it came from until you asked, probably many terms I still use from those days I still miss it!

Thanks Zibbles,

I have been corrected, and am sorry I made you feel that way, not my intentions. My comments were about the general atmosphere here, not directed at you or any other person. I will keep my opinions to myself for now, not in my nature as I typically tell people how I feel, right or wrong.

I wish you the best as well.

Instead of focusing on whether posters posts are "nice" enough, could you consider focusing on recovering your marriage? WE have tried to get you on track with a plan now for 2 weeks and are no further along than when you started. Even if all the posters here are not nice enough for you, what we can do is help you turn this around if you get focused.

Senn, I hope that you do realise some day that truth and honesty is the best policy, not kids gloves, "hard truth" or whatever instead of this.

The atmosphere here is just fine, very constructive and helpful. And I would also like to remind you that this is Marriage Builders founded by Dr Harley and here people work his programme. You are free to go elsewhere if you don't like it.

ahh,
Melody, thanks I'm ready.
WE have gone through the EPs. We are learning (both of us) about boundaries.

Indie wanted me to list them and how we have implemented them. I was writing it out on paper, and it isn't much different than what I had listed on page 34, what do you mean how we have implemented them. I copied an pasted what we have below.

She will not go anywhere without first informing me. If she cannot she will inform me directly after, either by text or phone.

She will inform me of any delay returning home from work. (hasn't happened yet except this AM she had to go to kids school)

She will not talk to other men about anything unless it is on a professional level at work.
(she has removed any phone # that belong to opposite sex)

She will not talk to any men on the telephone with exception to the DR, Dentist or family, and the occasional none English speaking guy who finally answers after 2 hours of talking to a computer only to pay a bill- and even then will inform of such.
(I have checked her phone daily and there have been no unrecognized #s, I have to reserve phone records on computer for weekends for lack of time through the week)

She has stopped teasing or joking with men at work as she does understand that that can be interpreted as flirting, and knows that flirting is unacceptable.
(currently she informs me of any contact with men at work and has become known as a B I T C H as she has completely stopped her personal conversations with the men, her work is my former workplace and I do know everyone who works there I can verify)

She will not make or receive phone calls from unrecognized phone #s without documenting it and informing me of who it was and what it was about.

She will not delete any incoming or outgoing phone calls or texts without me first seeing them. ( I have not found inconsistencies in this yet)

She will not allow the children to use her cell phone, unless she advises me first or directly after, This is to prevent questions or doubts, as they always call #s that aren't in her contacts. ( I have told the children this is unacceptable and explained why "need to form trust")

You do realize that all these depend solely upon her honesty, which is really NOT extraordinary precautions.

You shouldn't base your entire plan of protection upon her giving her word. Rather, it takes a radical lifestyle change the reduces/eliminates opportunities wherever possible.

For example, if she is WITH YOU you will know she doesn't flirt with men. If she doesn't work with men at all she can't flirt with them.


Again, all contingent upon her word. Not a plan. A better plan is to find a job where she is not working with men and is working the SAME SHIFT as you. The goal is to reduce and eliminate the OPPORTUNITIES for her pursue men.

All of these things on your list are GOOD, but they are not a substitute for changing her life to remove the opportunities to cheat. She should not even be around men at all. If she found a job working with women on the same shift as you then you can run errands with her to ensure she is not trolling for men.

Can't you just, oh, I don't know - be compassionate and just welcome them, or something?

Mel, you are so dry.

Melody,
I agree, total honesty is more of a goal from me to her. She has to decide to instill it in her life and it is habit forming as I am in that habit, it becomes natural.

As for the getting a job on the same shift, I agree, we are talking about that. Not an easy step as her income is necessary currently.
As I said her work is my former work. I was a foreman there and may be able to go back, as my replacement hasn't met the performance standard they are looking for. I would not be able to go back with my seniority which would put me on her shift. They were very happy with me when I left- for better pay, but it now puts me in an hour drive to work, Taking that into account, if I worked my drive time would nearly make the money I do now.
This is a thought, they may not take me back as they will not allow H & W to work together, she wasn't hired until I left there. If the new foreman is as bad as they say he is, they might take me back despite their rule.

Another thought to that is would I want to work with her, that creates problems of their own.

That sounds like the best solution. What would be the problem with that?

That would be AWESOME if you could get your job back and work closer to home!! Now you are thinking!!

you cannot verify that. I have been a witness to this situation in my own workplace and when employees KNOW that someone's wife is boinking others behind his back they make a PACT not to let the husband find out because they "don't want to hurt him!!" I can think of TWO such situations at my own company over the years, and the employees DID NOT TELL THE HUSBAND IN QUESTION! So don't count on them telling you what she is doing behind your back there. We even had one wife who was giving the drivers blow jobs in their cars in the parking lot!

If she is working with men, you should just assume she is flirting, chasing and perhaps boinking them. I am sorry to be so crude, but she should NEVER be in a position to work with men.

A question for you to think about.

Why would a long term serial adulteress stay married to you?

Notice it does not ask why she would want to stay married to you. She probably deep down does not actually want to stay married to you; perhaps not to anyone.

You cannot ask her, BTW. She won�t know why other than she may have some nebulous fear of change and the unknown. She will not tell you the complete and radical truth in any case. She does not know what the truth of this is any more.

You have to provide an answer to this for yourself. Once you have a working answer to this question you will be able to see your way forward - whichever direction that will be.

Good luck. You will need it if you keep doing what you are doing.


PS: Call the MB counseling center. They will help you.

Aphelion,

I have put much thought into that very question as I question whether she is really wanting what I want. I have explained to her that she needs to decide if this is what she wants, as I don't want it to be some kind of tag along situation only for me to make this is her safe place while she just does what she feel at that moment throughout our marriage.

I can tell you she has had a rough couple of days, It is finally setting in, what she did, what she is, who she has become. She keeps saying "This is not who I pictured myself as, I wanted to be a good person and good wife". Having lost my sense of humor in all of this, I said "this isn't how I pictured who you were either".

Sad thing is my Brother who was married and divorced twice due to his serial cheating (man whore), has come up in discussion prior to our current problem. She would always make a snide remark about how awful it would be married to him, knowing he is out screwing anything that would look at him. She would even comment on how my brother's XW deserved it as she was the OW in his first marriage, She would say the she knew what she was getting into marrying the guy who cheated on his ex wife with her.

She now is thinking, she is no better than him, and how critical she was of him while she was lying to herself about who she was.

She is going through a very rough time, and I feel bad as a little part of me is enjoying the hell out of seeing her go through a little of what I have.

Melody,
I agree with that assumption and concur. There is probably only one person whom I trust would be honest, which was my direct supervisor and is now her "big boss" and that type of info would never be revealed to him for many reasons. I can say by me knowing everyone there and having worked with them is a deterrent, may not be much but a little deterrent.

Is there in anyone in the ranks who would be brutally honest with you if you asked him one on one? From my experience in these situations, they are NOT going to volunteer this information to you.

I was thinking last night about ways you might be able to make this work. Would it be possible for your wife to get a day shift in the office with women? And then you get your old job back at the same place, but on a day shift.

I would try and think of solutions that put her with all women, and put you on the same shift with you preferably closer to home.

Melody,
Yea, there are a couple of people who would not lie if asked directly. I keep in contact with one of the "employees" as a distant friend basis. I can check up on her through him and probably be successful in getting info from him. Her workplace is primarily men, they have been on a push for the past 5 years to integrate women into the area she works. They have increased the women employees to about 20% now, with plans to make it 50% in the next 5 years or so. There was only one woman working there when I started 8 years ago.

A little update, W had a near breakdown today. It All started over OM called me over a problem at work. We ended up talking for over an hour about the A and how he is doing in his marriage. The next thing you know I was on the phone with his W giving her advice on what she needs to do to save her marriage ( I know I'm not the most qualified to give that advice, but I know way more than she does about MB and affairs).

My WW was with me listening to my conversation and had a complete breakdown over not having anyone to talk to about her problem while I can talk to everyone. I don't know if she is more upset that I was talking to them/(OM) or that she can't.

So, WW picked up the phone and called her mother and told her everything. As I predicted her mother would, she spewed her version of what she thought would be good advice or encouragement, and explained how she and her father had cheated on each other. How it turned into almost a game where one of them would cheat so the other would go out and do it, and how it happened a # of times.

As you can imagine they aren't together anymore. Wow, what an eye opener for WW, and me. I knew she came from a screwed up family, and now we know the rest of the story!

I am glad WW told her mother as she has lost all of her friends bc of this affair, and does need someone to talk to, but it scares the crap out of me what kind of negative advice she might obtain out of it. I told her talk to her about it etc, but for the love of God, don't listen to her advice, only pick out the good stuff, and even then question it.

Senn, I haven't posted to you before, but your last post prompted me to say DANGER!

Your MIL sounds wayward in her thinking. You do NOT want to encourage your WW to seek advice from another wayward when she is still foggy herself. Its like encouraging a criminal to seek advice from another criminal about how to stop offending. Clearly neither of them have figured out a way to stop and will likely commiserate on how hard it is and share justifications on why they did what they did.



I would suggest being involved in all contact your WW has with her mother so you can challenge the fogginess.