Expat,
I'm sorry if these questions have been asked and answered already. I'm in a hurry and didn't read the entire thread. Has your wife gone to a psychiatrist for anti-depressants?
If you can, read my first post. You will see that I was a lot like your wife. It's been 4 months since my last point of "indirect" (yea, FB) contact and I can finally say that I am through withdrawl and out of the fog. It takes a long time and everyone on here is right. Everytime she looks at anything regarding her POSOM, it will take her back to Day 1.
She needs meds if she is suicidal (again, read my post....I was). She needs to get out of the depression before you can move forward in healing your marriage. Her emotions are too strong to be rational.
I hope this helps.......don't give up.........it takes time but she'll get there.
CT

The above is why, I suspect, most are recommending the continued snooping. +/- 60 days since D-Day isn't that long ago.


And having to have a "long conversation" to get access to email, etc. is a bit noticeable.

Pay attention to her reaction when she learns that you have deleted all photographs of OM. That should be telling, and I hope that you see a positive response from her.

Just keep tabs on her for now.

Ok. Let me re-word the fox and hen house. I think it is a great idea to engage WW to work jointly with you on planning UA time, meeting ENs, and reading the lit. This is exactly how you re-build the romantic love. But this is only one step of the plan.

It will all be for naught if the conditions that allowed the A to happen are not eliminated. This means ALL the conditions...not just the ones that are convenient. Your WW seems to be stuck on her privacy and in reality IS NOT willing to do whatever it takes.

I am sorry that your WW has had a troubled past. That is a terrible thing to endure. But it by no means gives her the right to privacy in the sense that she can have the ability to have secrets from you.

Boundaries are not negotiable. That is letting the fox guard the hen house.

Checking back in with updates.

From talking to my WW:

* She agreed without blinking that I should delete the photos from FB, but insisted that she hadn't looked at his profile page in weeks. I verified in her browser history, this was probably a projection on my part. I'VE been looking at his facebook page, but I've blocked it for both of us now, anyways.

* She said that she didn't feel like she was still in such difficult withdrawal... that it had been days since her last urge to contact him, and that she has really good tactics to distract herself and call other people instead. She showed me her list of people to call.

* I said "well if you're not having those urges to contact him, then what are those dark moods I see?" Her response was that it's guilt. Every time she sees me hurting... and sometimes when she sees me strong, too, she's reminded of how awful the damage is. I know she is overwhelmed with guilt, and that explanation makes sense to me. I think I was projecting "withdrawal" onto just general depression and upset-ness, because I wasn't asking her what she was thinking about. It's very easy for me to go off on my own mental tangent of second-guessing her thoughts, and I drive myself crazy with it!

* When she goes into a really dark place, she has thoughts like "I don't deserve someone who would forgive me," "you would be better off with someone else, who doesn't hurt you like this," and "I just don't know if I believe that we can be happy together." I know it's the fog talking, but WOW it hurts to hear. Thankfully she's not making decisions in that state of mind...but I don't know that she is recognizing the peaks and lows of the roller coaster all that well yet.

* She expressed frustration that she doesn't see a path forward... doesn't know how to rebuild what we lost, or how there's a road to happiness. I've explained in great summary the plan for recovery (1- ID and eliminate LBs, 2 - ID and build habits around ENs, 3- check in regularly on success of 1/2, 4 - implement RH and PJA), but of course she needs more than just a sketch... and she really needs to feel like there are success stories out there.

OTHERWISE:

* I've installed a keylogger on her computer, to help me check up on her. I've also got one picked out for her iphone, when I get the chance. I believe she's telling the truth about not contacting him, but frankly the reassurance would help! Thanks to everyone who worked to explain and convince me of this.

* One of the hardest things for us right now is our different needs. Affection is my #1 emotional need NORMALLY. When I'm hurting... it can become an incredibly strong craving. When she's in a dark place, she feels like she needs space to get over it, the same way I need affection. So our instincts set us up to do the OPPOSITE of what the other needs when we're hurting! When I see her in a funk, my every urge is to go and hold her, give her reassurance that I want to work this out... but that makes her guilt worse. And when she sees me in pain, her urge is to leave me alone for a few minutes to deal with it. We've addressed this and so far she's done a fantastic job of feeding me affection when I'm in a slump. But it's really hard for me to give her space when she's in a slump. Honestly I think the issue is that she hasn't identified any of her ENs yet. So when I'm making deposits, they're just "best guess", and watching to see what gets a good reaction. I forwarded her the "surviving an affair" article about 3 weeks ago, but she was 90 leagues under the fog at the time and hasn't read any of this stuff yet.



I think the next step is to start working through "the program" on this site together. Building a plan for recovery, identifying LBs and ENs etc. I think that reading people's stories, seeing the forum, and just reading the good Doctor's words will give her a lot of hope - I know it has done that for me! But I'm concerned about how best to introduce it. For other people who started this... do you think it matters how it starts? If a spouse starts the program because their partner wants to, or "is making them do it", does that just sabotage things from the get go? Is it important for her to start hunting for this information on her own, as well?

Also, how do you guys read this material together, just from a purely mechanical standpoint? Do you read over each others' shoulders? Read to each other? Does it really matter?

Good job! The best way to do it is read 2-3 chapters at a time separately, and then discuss. You use a yellow highlighter and she uses a pink highlighter and highlight things that are important to you that you want your spouse to read. Go through the lessons in the back of Surviving an Affair.

I would then go onto the book Lovebusters and do the lessons in the back of each chapter. <? I think the most recent version has Q&A at the end of each chapter - someone look in your book please>

Also get the workbook Five Steps to Romantic Love workbook and follow the program outlined in there. Before you do any of this, tear out the Undivided Attention worksheet in the back of workbook and make copies. Scheduling your UA time [20+ hours per week] is the most important part of the program BECAUSE THE PROGRAM DOES NOT WORK WITHOUT IT. All the need meeting and avoiding lovebusters will amount to a BIG FAT NOTHING if you are not getting in at least 15 hours of UA time a week. Trust me on this one!

Explain to her that you are not going to rebuild what you lost. That is dead and gone. What this will do is CREATE ROMANTIC LOVE. The entire goal here is for you both to fall in love. Falling in love is the goal and is the measure of success.

Recovery means building a better marriage than what you had before.

And the FASTEST way to do that is to spend 20+ hours per week meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs of conversation, affection, rec companionship and sexual fulfillment. That time should be scheduled and spent away from friends, family, children and no tv or movies! <-----this will make the biggest difference in the shortest amount of time. Your wife will feel her feelings of love coming back in a few weeks.

MelodyLane, you are an angel


1) We don't have the books, and don't actually have the money for them at the moment. (moving apartments was BRUTALLY expensive... we're lucky we can afford groceries at the moment). I was planning on starting with the articles on the website, and moving to the books later. Is this a mistake?

2) I'm honestly a bit apprehensive about the books. From my understanding they are written from a strong Christian perspective, and we are not religious. I'm concerned that they aren't written with us as an audience in mind.

3) As I read #2, I think it's a stupid reason... the concepts are valid and worth pursuing, so who cares about the religion? Of course, I haven't read these books so I don't know what I'm talking about...



20+ hours a week should be easy for us. We are both self-employed out of the home, share the same hobbies and friends... in fact trying to find ONE separate activity is something we both prioritize. I understand the difference between "time in the same room" and UA. What I mean is, it's easy for us to get that time together... especially over the holidays with everyone we know out of town!

BUT I have no idea how to get to SF together. I'm still incredibly attracted to her, but the mind movies are brutal. and on her side, the guilt is tremendous. I can't imagine how we're going to be able to open up to each other enough to make love again any time soon. Is there a thread or article somewhere we can read about this?

Actually... one more element. Conversation is a bit tricky for us, because we are together easily 95% of our day. "what did you do today" is not a useful subject of discussion, because we were both there! (This is part of why we're looking for separate activities) I'm trying to engage her in talking in more depth about people, what she thinks about places, her history, etc... but sometimes it's a bit... strained. Any suggestions?

They are written for everyone, Christian, secular, whatever. It has nothing to with religion.


Just start doing it tonight. You should start right away. That is part of recovery.

If you don't have the money for books now, then I would suggest emailing Dr Harley's radio show with a marriage question. He will read it and answer it on the air and SEND YOU A BOOK FOR FREE!

The more you are together, the more you will enjoy each others company, so don't look for separate activities! The best marriages are the ones that spend the most time together.

Check this out: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5056_qa.html

Thanks for the link- I read that one a couple of weeks ago, and it's worth a re-read.

As for separate activities... I feel I need to back myself up here. We've lived in a 400 square foot studio apartment together for the last 2.5 years. We worked together from home (I was her immediate boss), perform together, rehearse together, study together... I mean we have literally spent 24x7 within easy spitting distance of each other for 2.5 years. We did have a brief hiatus, where we were in a 750 square foot apartment with two rooms for three months. That apartment was a 2 hour journey from the nearest town, so we were under effective house arrest for the time.

I think it's hard for people to understand that kind of claustrophobia without living it. Russia just finished an experiment to test the ability of people to survive a trip to mars with their sanity intact - a year and a half of 6 people in a 1600 sqft living space. To see if they would go crazy. They could have just called me and asked.

We didn't go crazy. In a lot of ways, we had a great time. We came out of it with a ton of inside jokes, and knowing every intimate detail about each other. With so little outside stimulation, you really plumb the depths! The down side is that it murdered our real world relationship skills and communication, which is part of what made this A possible in the first place!

My point is, YES the strongest couples are the ones who spend the most time together, TO A POINT. If you spend 24x7 almost always alone together for 800 days... it turns out that people do have needs for other input, and for "me time".

I'm hoping that by running the marriage builders plan, we'll get to the point where separate activities seems like a crazy idea... but in the meantime, it's really nice to have some news to come home with.

No one is suggesting that you don't socialize with others or isolate yourself. If you are together you can be with other people, you know. Dr Harley and Mrs Harley have the best marriage and they are together 24/7. The more time you are together - provided you have a good marriage - the stronger and happier your marriage will be. It is only in bad marriages that they have trouble with this.

I'm sorry... you mean I should just sit my wife down and say "let's have sex tonight," and make it happen no matter how we feel?

I could probably manage it, but I don't think she's in a place where she can. She feels so guilty, and terrible about her own sexuality. A big part of the cause of the A is that we haven't been passionate about each other in ages... in short, she's not turned on by me at the moment, and she's working so hard to be honest with herself that she doesn't want to fake anything. I expect I just have to be patient and make my deposits until she feels better.

I read my own reply and started thinking. Actually she's perfectly willing to make herself do some things to meet my ENs, and SF is definitely one of them. I actually think that it's one of her top ones, too... so maybe this will all be more straightforward when we talk through figuring out her ENs.

First thing tomorrow: read the section of the site on ENs with her, and fill out the worksheets together.

LEP,

Besides which you don't want to have sex with WW until she has been tested for STDs. HPV causes cancer these days so you can never be too careful.

God Bless
Gamma

Gamma - yes, she's already been tested. Clean, thank goodness.

Yep, go jump her bones! Have some fun. Having sex will help her feel more bonded to you IMMEDIATELY. Don't wait on this. Get to it!

Take a shower, put on some hot smelling cologne, take her for a romantic dinner and move in for the kill.

I would like nothing more... but seriously, she's not even comfortable with me making sexy jokes with her. I really feel I need to build some intimacy.

But hey, wth do I know, right? Maybe tomorrow we spend the day meeting each others' ENs, go for a great dinner (I know just the place), and then... well it certainly plays out well in my mind.

Just explain the concept of UA time to her. She needs to bring the body and the mind will follow. She will feel more like it if she just DOES it. You should be meeting each others intimate emotional needs NOW. NOW. Not later. That is how recovery happens.

Recovery is an ACTION PLAN that is based on actions. You don't wait for the feelings FIRST because the feelings follow actions. Do the actions and her feelings will follow.

Make a PLAN to go out tomorrow for the sole purpose of meeting the top 4 3 intimate emotional needs of conversation, affection, rec companionship and sexual fulfillment. Don't leave it to chance. Make a PLAN to meet those top 4 ENs. Tomorrow and for 4 other dates in the week.

I got a better idea... Take her in the shower with you. wash her and let her know that she is no longer acting the part of a dirty adultress, but is making herself clean. let her know you are reconsumating your marriage to her in love.

make it romantic. make it something special.

CV