My H likes gaming too, HHH. He's doing it right now, in fact, lol. He plays with our sons - so I don't mind it. There was a time when I did, because it's ALL he did, but not anymore.

Usually I have plenty of schoolwork to keep my mind busy. Right now, being on break, I don't have that. I have plenty of housework to do - but that doesn't really keep my mind busy. Underwater basketweaving??? lol

Hmmm....maybe I'll actually start playing my piano again!

BTW, I trigger about SF during SF too at times - certainly NO fun!!!! And hard to stop!

Sunny, I keep a quick list in my head for dips and triggers;

1) Are we getting enough UA time?

2) Are my most important EN's being met?

3) Is she managing her LB's?

4) How am I meeting her needs?

5) Am I avoiding LB's?


Now, you will notice that UA is right at the top; it is THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT CONCEPT. A, no A, if UA isn't met, you can both end up miserable.

As BSs, we tend to "feel" that waning LB$ balance a lot sooner, and off we go into trigger-land. The FWS? They are strange folks. From what I have observed at home, and here, a REPENTANT WS will easily achieve a soaring LB$ balance. They are like cancer survivors, because they look at things from a "second/last chance perspective. Our view is a little darker.

Now, 1-3 are there because you want to evaluate your Husband's balance. It will hemorrhage Love Units constantly due to his infidelity. So you have to be vigilant with those 3 - that way, when a trigger hits, your balance isn't so devastated that you slip into withdrawal.

The last 2 are to ensure that you maintain your balance with him.


Now, on the issue of talking or e-mauling LB behaviors; I am a strong advocate of regular use of the ENQ and LBQ. Up to weekly at first... Then monthly... Then as needed.

If he has to fill his out BEFORE he sees yours, and vice-versa, it should help eliminate that tit-for-tat feeling. That will help each of you from feeling at odds with each other.

I'm sorry to post and run, SunnyD, especially not having read all of this thread, but this jumped out at me.

I've heard Dr Harley say that a spouse should NOT mention triggers. He described it as coming under the category of talking about the affair, or reminding the other spouse of a something they did wrong in the past, which is always a bad idea. He was asked "what if the BS is upset right in front of the WS's face, and the WS can see that something is wrong, and asks? What should the BS say? What about radical honesty?" and he said, basically, to say nothing. The BS could say "nothing; I'm okay", and the WS should try and accept that and not push it.

He was very clear on the need NOT to talk about the trigger. I think he implied that if the WS found the BS in tears, or the BS burst into tears right in front of the WS unexpectedly, then nothing could be done about that, but as for talking about it, if you can control it, then don't do it.

I think the same would apply to writing down triggers in notebooks and discussing them later; it should not be done.

I must admit that I found that quite startling to hear, but I do accept it now that I can see the benefits in my own marriage, and I thought I'd pass it on to you.

You know, that's a great way to handle the discussions: do the questionnaires on a regular basis and discuss. That definitely WOULD eliminate the tit-for-tat feeling!

I like the running list idea too: get something stable in the brain to think on that is productive and not just sinking into sadness or anger.

Thank you - these are great suggestions! It's always hard when you get emotional to think through the reasonable steps that should be done.

I agree, UA time is of the utmost importance! I even mentioned that I trigger when H and I are not together - not when we are. Of course, he HAS to work, lol, but I just bring it up to say that the closer you feel to one another, the less you feel badly about the past.

I appreciate your thoughts on this, Sugar Cane. I must admit, I need to research this because it certainly seems to go against the grain of Open and Honesty. For the past year I've gotten advice that while I shouldn't bring up the affair, I needed to let my H know when I needed his support (due to triggers) and to teach him how to help me. Hmmm... much to think about there.

Of course, I am not questioning what you are saying - if that's what Dr. H said, that's what he said. I know you wouldn't say so if he didn't. I'm just taken back by it.

I'll admit - I don't see how that is at all fair to the faithful spouse. I am certainly an advocate of not beating up the FWS because that will not bring them closer to you. Trying to "punish" them for what they did certainly may make the FBS feel better, but at the detriment of the marriage relationship. But... there are consequences for actions. One of the consequences of having an affair is that you tore the heart out of your loved one - and it's your responsibility to help repair that, is it not? How is a FWS supposed to know the best way to do so if a FBS doesn't guide them? And why should the FBS have to suffer in silence?

I don't know. Seems strange to me. I can see why it would be huge love withdrawals to constantly be bringing it up or doing so in a poor manner.

Well, it certainly is something to think about!

My problem is that I've always kept things in and never expressed my feelings. I finally learn to do so and then learn I'm not supposed to.

Just when I think I am getting good at this stuff I learn that I still have a lot to learn! LOL

Maybe the aforementioned notebook was more about struggles within the marriage and not triggers as such. ???

I sympathise entirely with your reaction to this, Sunny. I have not been a model BS at all, and the recovery programme goes against my instincts entirely!

I think the answer to how a FWS is supposed to help a BS without guidance is that:

He or she would not be doing it without guidance. The BS has given the FWS a list of ENs, which is reviewed whenever the needs change. If you needs hugs 30 times per day, phone calls four times a day and conversation for an hour every day, then that is what the FWS must provide. A BS's ENs might be heightened after an affair, but meeting them is the FWS's job (and vice versa). The FWS takes guidance from the BS on that.

This is within the context of following Dr H's programme in which the FWS provides Just Compensation. The ultimate guidance is that the programme provides a loving, happy marriage for both spouses.

I've just remembered something else Dr H said in that discussion: that there is no point talking about the affair. Nothing can be done about it. You can't resolve it. You can't go back in time and put it right. Bringing it up is simply bringing up something horrible that cannot be undone, so don't talk about it, and that includes triggers. The whole talk was about discussing triggers, so he did not just mean talking about the affair history in general.

I will write to him on the private forum and get his words in writing, and copy them to you. It will take me a day or two because of New Years (and I'm sure he is busy too!) but I will do this. I'd hate to give you incorrect advice.

I love posting from my phone, autocorrect makes interesting substitutions... E-mauling Love Busters... Fitting!

SC and SDIT,
The notebook was an easy way to get off my chest what had zinged me, but never with the goal of re-hashing the A or re-opening the wounds. Writing it down, and having the bride read/react to it was cathartic and cleansing. One I remember was explaining that driving past the boat-landing had bothered me quite a bit. Her answer was perfect to re-setttle my outlook.

I'm looking at the book now (it hasn't been moved in over a year, and the look on bride's face until I explained what I was doing was.....unpleasant), and I'm rather surprised to discover it is roughly 60 - 40 toward things that triggered HER, not me. So obviously it was not geared to sticking it in her eye, in any way.

Remember, too, we did 90% of the recovery without MB, so if it were something that was supposed to be harmful, I guess we were too ignorant to realize that!

(BTW: We just decided to burn it in the fireplace tonight. How's that for an interesting development?)

Well - I'm glad, NG, that the discussion has helped further your developments! and I see your point about the notebook

Thanks, SC - it DOES make sense - the way you put it.

3H: I noticed the emauling - and laughed to myself!
LOL

I'm getting ready for a nice, family-oriented New Year's Eve! I TRULY appreciate you all giving me such good advice when it is the holidays. I needed it.

I hope you all have a very blessed and happy 2012!!!!!

Looking forward to learning more in the new year.

NG, what you did in the past was a thousand times better than my achievements! I am in no position to criticise anyone's past behaviour.

I am only passing on what I have heard Dr Harley say on this. I wouldn't want to see a poster doing what I or anyone else did, if Dr Harley has said "DON'T DO THAT" - even if that solution actually helped a poster. It might well be counter-productive for other posters, and indeed, Sunny shows how uncomfortable her H becomes when she talks about her triggers.

My instinct - in fact my past practice - has been to say "tough! you caused this, now you'll have to live with the consequences!" - but making the WS suck it up and face the BS's grief does not work, not if the goal is to have a happy marriage. I've found that out through trial and error.

Sigh. I wish Dr Harley was wrong on this, dammit.

Well, NG actually nailed the key term here, and acknowledging that, Dr. Harley isn't alone in his opinion.

The key term is *drumroll please*.... Catharsis.

Catharsis has a long history, but in terms of getting beyond emotions, has proven to be a failure under rigorous study.

In other words, when you wish to read catharsis, don't.

A quick google search will likely bring up the articles on said studies.

BTW, SDIT, TSO was A-OK! - NG

Catharsis...hmmm...interesting topic. I'm going to look up those studies!

SC: I wish Dr. H was wrong too - darn it - but he probably isn't. LOL

NG...Glad you enjoyed TSO!! I bought the dang CD's and DVD! lol

WE're going to see them in their Beethoven special in Spring!

I remember the radio show in which Dr. Harley was discussing how to handle the triggers that make us sad/angry. He said not to bring them up and that when we feel badly about the affair, the BS should go to their spouse and ask for something specific, like a hug or a kiss or to be held. If the FWS asks what's wrong, the BS is supposed to stick to something like "I'm feeling a little down." Supposed to leave it at that.

The truth about reminiscing, whether it's over good things or bad, is that it really does bring the past into the present. So when we talk about wonderful experiences, we can almost feel like we're experiencing it all over again. We can remember so many details and delight in them, and those are really fun discussions.

But the same thing happens when we talk about the painful experiences of our lives. We can remember all the vivid details. I remember a goodbye that occurred between my father-in-law and daughter when she was little and we lived in Germany, and he had to fly home the next day. When I told people about that, it brought tears to my eyes for the next few years.

What Dr. H. recommends to recovering couples is very hard to do, but it's the best way to heal from the pain. Not talking about it is to keep that awful thing where it belongs, in the grave, buried.

I am glad that I got the gist of it right. Thanks, LongWay!

I have never kept a note of what is discussed in each radio show, with the dates. Some people do this, and it would be perfect if one of them showed up here and posted the link!

I like this approach. It shows trust also because the BS is still having confidance in the WS and limiting the exchange of painful past triggers conversations. Lets face it, if we are honest, we had the painful discussion and shared the pain allready. Time to move on, live life, and forgive also as I am sure we all need at one time or another. If WS is demonstrating love then in time they should be forgiven, actions will heal much more than words, and they make larger clearer sounds also.

Of course any comment from me would not be complete without my relating DR Hs long time experience with drug and alcohol counselling and how relevent his learning/teaching in that field is to a clean and sober life in the real world. Clean, honest, and a realistic outlook with to our human frailties and weaknesses that come naturally with these weak frames.

Of course now, dealing with a wayward, can be compared to dealing with a drunk, addict, or anyone enslaved to thier emotions. Credit where credit is due is important, and a nessesary part of the healing process. If we don't seek to heal both parties in the marriage, then there is no marriage, it is simply a business arrangement, with rules and regulations, that by most standards, we wish we could get out of.

How does a wayward, a drunk, an addict overcome the addiction? Well its not jail. Oh sure how many people become clean while in jail, and then fall again once they come out? Many I am afriad..The same can be said of a marriage that does not have love in it. Such is why we must fall in love and stay in love. The addict that gets straight in jail and stays straight is a humble person who looks for help, understanding they are weak and were fooled by the worse trickster enemy they know, themselves. They become broken inside and seek out help, just like many who are recovering.

What do they seek? They seek love. From the addict to the wayward, that is what we seek, and with that power in our lives, we can overcome anything. To be loved just as we are, with all our warts and blemishes, scars and damage, failures and insecurities, well...who would love us if they really knew us?

God would/does, and if you like the politically correct version, we can call God Truth and consequences instead, but for the sake of keeping it simple I will call Him/It God. God even respects us and trusts us enough to kick our butts directly when we screw up, and expects us to straighten out or suffer the consequences, yes, the consequences are also a gift to us, sorta like a trip to the woodshed or a Holy 2X4 aside the head. Yep, it builds character, or as I used to say, makes you into one....

But that magic of being loved, should be celibrated, and I think a repentant WS could see that also, and at some point say,"Wow honey, thanks for kicking my butt and making me acountable, I almost lost everything that is really important to me, including all that makes me who I am.., I am so lucky to have you".. Recovered couples should look at themselves as being blessed, not cursed for there foolish mistakes. Failure is part of learning, and how you handle your failures shows what your made of..

Grats to all recovered couples, who have the strength to love and accept love, and the meekness to learn, we are allways learning..and yeah we need instruction

Very beautifully put, CP! You're absolutely right. Whatever the pain suffered, BOTH parties can experience greater love because of the forgiveness shown as well as a good straightening out.

LongWay, it is good to understand a little more behind why to not bring up triggers. The good news for me is, while I did bring up triggering last week, I have not done so much of the recovery period. I'm glad Sugar Crane brought it to my attention and you added a bit more.

I guess the past really can be recalled, for better or worse, fairly easily at times. I understand it must be frustrating for the FWS. They can't undo what's been done. And really, it gives power to the affair partner to recall it all once again.

So...I'll just learn to express needs without relating it to the past.

H and I had 6 hours of GREAT UA time today as well as many hours this weekend.

What I wrote to you about the memories of the past, both good and bad, I also write to myself.

I did a really lousy job of following Dr. H's advice during the first year of recovery. I did keep my mouth shut some of the time, but I really let FWH have it with both barrels at other times.

It was really amazing to me just how painful talking about the A and my own pain became. And the strange thing to me was that talking about it never made it better. It just kept bringing it to the forefront of my mind, and there the pain would linger.

The more I write to others, the more I remind myself....

Sunny:

I go away for a week and BAM! Traffic soars on your thread. You obviously brought up a great point about triggers, which we both know I just had a bad one.

I do believe this concept -- of not dwelling or discussing triggers -- will be a be a good one to work on for 2012.

And if successfully mastered, will make the new year all the better.

Glad you got GREAT UA time this weekend. We did, too!

Cheers,
SP

LOL, Sweet Pea...I know!

I'm glad I brought up the trigger discussion. Hopefully, we can all be helped by having some clarity on this issue!

I don't know about you, but I'm glad to be moving on to 2012!

Glad you had some great time with your hubby. It's much needed for me after the holiday season. I always get a bit of post-Christmas blues. Part of the problem is, I'm so busy before Christmas I don't have time to enjoy it. Then, after Christmas, I do - and it's OVER! I need to think of ways to plan better next year I guess!