How old are your kids?

Has WW ever posted here?

Girl is 12, boy 10.

She certainly knows of this site and how its kept me off the ledge of many occasions, but has no interest in posting.

She's not a great writer nor has ability to express herself in words to any great degree. The inability to express herself, in fact, is a current exasperation I am dealig with. She was in love with a man for a period time and then it evolved into something different as per description early on. I am seeking to learn more about what is in her that allowed her to stick around with this man when the "love" died. Its an excercise in armchair psychology for me. I NEED TO KNOW.

Im feeling terribly insignificant still. For a lot of years I was equal to our refridgerator or couch, I was there but very little thought went into me or my feelings. I am demanding to know why that videos of her doing him were brought to light, I am now significant in her life. If these videos OMW stumbled upon never were seen but by OM, my wife would be his GF still. Ive asked her to deny that too.

I glad to hear, however, my emotions are in line with accepted time frames.

SP-Thanks. My greatest success has been keeping my kids out of the know of my mental strife. My girl knows what her mother did moreso than the boy and Im scared to death she'll have even the most remote ability to callously treat her relationships like her mother did. I need to make sure advice my wife gives (even if its well intentioned) is in line with what normal people would suggest to their kids. My wife lost this right.

Ive gotten great advice here very recently about retraining my brain when anger arises. Working on it.

Look, at risk of being naive here (well my wife did have a LTA basically under my nose and I never caught on, so the naive ship sailed long ago), but my wife describes the early days of the romance as she was in love. Then, like Dr. H. writes, the affair "love" seemed to die lets says 3 years later.. But, here my rub, my wife continued to be his bimbo for many years after. As his employee, she collected a weekly paycheck and he provided some nice gifts and dinners and whatnot. So, reconciling this notion that was it best for her to betray me and the kids for all that time for a few hundred a week and some dinners is quite a difficult thing.

I sometimes cant even look at her.

But you do know. She was being selfish and stupid and dumb. She let another man meet her needs. Doesn't mean it was "real" love, just needs-meeting.

Are you two working the program? You admit earlier that you can't meet UA time requirement. I've seen Pep and Marital tell people mired in pain that 20+ hours are needed if you're still reeling.

So, if you're willing to stick around and find out what changes in your mind, why aren't you willing to WORK at changing your mind? Those images/thoughts/issues won't go away by osmosis.

My IC had me work for weeks and weeks about putting "those bad books" back on the shelf and taking another one out, ones that supported my marriage and my self-confidence. It took A LOT of effort, and I still have trouble on occasion, but not as badly as the first six to seven months.

THink about therapy. It's not against MB philosophy to get therapy if it jibes with the principles and is constructive in healing yourself and your marriage.

SP
(Sorry I missed that you had boy and girl. Thought you just had girls.)

I dont like her very much. I tried to love her for seven months now. I said it to her thousands of times. Shes said it to me. We stepped up SF by 1000% from prior dday levels, my EN for sure. We go for walks, dinners, movies, and all the other stuff to make our UA special.

Lately, however, I think a lot about some question: Why should I? Is she worth it? No one can answer these but me.

Right now. I dont like my answers. Im stuck on how unfeeling, callous, and hardened she was to me.

Its almost like I want to leave her because of the tremendously difficult life that would face her.

But, it would be hurting my kids too and doing that would go against all I believe in. She, however, spent 8 years having little problem with the potential hurt she eventually delivered.

[quote]Its almost like I want to leave her because of the tremendously difficult life that would face her. [quote]

I totally get this desire to WANT TO PUNISH!!! I'm the most loyal person on earth ... UNTIL I'M CROSSED. Then watch out! I will HUNT YOU DOWN and UNLEASH HELL.

I get that feeling. For some reason, I've only had glimmers of Vengeance SweetPea in all of this. Mainly I've been horribly crushed, sad, depressed. (I like Vengeance SweetPea much better than Sad SweetPea, but I can't channel her much for some reason in all this.)

You, my friend, have PLENTY of reason to chuck it all. Eight years is A LONG FREAKIN' time.

So, back to MB techniques, though. OK, so your SF need is being met. That's GOOD. Isn't that a HUGE GOOD for you, given how bad it was before? Killing this affair has led to a direct resurgence of your SF life with your wife. THAT IS GOOD!!! That, frankly, is amazing, given that your heart isn't fully into recovery. Don't you think she can feel it? Is there no smidgen of admiration you can give to your FWW for her effort on this part?

So the next question is: What ELSE can she do to meet MORE of your top needs so that you can actually look at her -- on occasion -- as someone who loves you and who wants to make you the happiest man in the world?

SP

I like the way you frame your response. I should be 'happy' that my wife is now willing to give it up to me? Again, it only took a moron who video'd her bj'ing him to leave those videos on his cellphone so his wife could find them for me to have the sexual relationship Ive wanted for what?, EIGHT YEARS????

I didnt kill the affair. Its seems to have died a long time ago but laziness and other words I cant think of allowed her to continue to be his girlfriend. Only by chance did it end. And, factor this, she claims and I really believe her she has zero withdrawal from him. Freaking hates him. And she says and I have examples that lead me to believe this, shes really hated him for a number of years. BUTTTTTT, she stayed in the relationship.

I dont know what she do frankly to make things better. Shes a damaged soul as am I. We'll go thru life with this always part of us. Ill go thru life thinking when the next guy to dangle a nice outfit or jewelry or steak dinner comes by, she'll have it in her to make him happy too.

Is 25+ hrs of alone time going to change that?

Dr. Harley is extremely clear on why he uses the two year number, and recites the reasoning in almost every radio show: if after two years your marriage is not BETTER THAN IT HAS EVER BEEN, you're probably not going to recover and should separate, planning to divorce.

He arrived at the two year number based on observation and counseling of thousands of couples over the past three decades; those who didn't feel their marriage was better than it had ever been after two years of trying to improve it following Dr. Harley's recommendations typically ended up divorced no matter what.

That's actually quite common when the affair dies a natural death before D-Day; the D-Day confrontation just allows the unfaithful spouse to drive a stake into the heart of the affair with someone they really were starting to dislike anyway. But by that time, the betrayed spouse usually has so much resentment to overcome that they may never do so.

"I know you love me but you don't like me. I will spend forever trying to change that second part." -My wife last nite.

(Man, I picked a lousy week to go incommunicado!)

MSS, if this posting seems...familiar....I apologize. I just think that you should hear it again.

The lady you married all those years ago is gone, killed by the actions of WW and POSOM.

The lady you were married to and who cheated on you during that marriage is gone as well, killed by a combination of affair-tedium and your joint actions with OMW.

The lady who will sleep by your side tonight is a new person, less na�ve than the former, and most certainly much wiser than the latter. You should avail yourself of the opportunity to make a lifetime with HER, not those other two ladies of your past.

YES, there is much to be said for the benefits to your children of having their two parents together. I'm not going to stress that to you now, because I believe that sale is made. Instead, I want you to be a bit selfish, Mike. Bury those two carcasses, once and for all. They should no longer have any claim to your heart and mind. Concentrate on the living woman. Does she have those qualities that you want in a life-mate? We're hearing from you that she does. Listen to yourself, and maximize your own happiness, Mike.

The last dirty little BS secret is that the pain of betrayal doesn't necessarily leave as you distance yourself from the former betrayer. You will hurt in her future absence as you hurt in her current presence. But, she remains your best medicine, Mike, just as you remain hers.

And, E - A - O - T - P

Thanks. I finally gave in to my frustration at not being able to discuss the affair at any level. I had so much more I needed to ask. I told it wasn't fair that I had to live forever with this black hole in my life and just swallow my curiosity.

I asked a few things. Never raised my voice. I kept my conversation as mellow as could be. Got some clarifications on some things. She set me straight on a few other things.

I actually felt a lot better. I felt better about her and the place she's at mentally today.

That's when she asked me to stay and keep loving her while we continue to work out the rest of the stuff.

And NG-the story you tell is indeed exactly as you said it 6-7 months ago. It means so much more tonight than it it then.

Time is the great equalizer is this game.

Good post. And I haven't felt like I do since I had the convo with her about the affair a couple nights ago. It just closed so many unknowns in me while I also firmly believe she was helped by, not so much confessing, but expanding on details as i asked. I ended the talk by telling her I was trying, but...she said no buts right now, she begged me to keep trying. Then the part loving not liking her. It was the first real moment in a while.

I felt a major worldview shift just in the last couple of days since.

I actually was freaked a bit because that bit about loving her but not liking her I wrote here just a couple days before she said almost the exact words to me She doesn't come on to the boards.

Anyway, CV, your post was really poignant in light of the last few days.

Thanks for writing it here.

Mike, glad you are more encouraged, and glad that I could help in some small way. Remember the rollercoaster. Don't forget that the rollercoaster takes us down a bunch of different hills too. They don't all feel the same.

At last night's basketball practice a woman lost her diamond right out of the setting of the ring. Twenty people were on their hands and knees searching for it. She then thought to go to her car to look there. I gave her a mini flashlite I carry on my keychain to search in the dark.

A few minutes later this woman who I do not know at all came back with the diamond in her hand. She gave me the biggest hug and kiss on the cheek a stranger could give (her husbad was right next to her, btw) for lending her the flashlite.

I told my wife I cheated on her and told her the story. Now, maybe I told her tongue in cheek or maybe not, but I was curious to what my wife would think. I asked her if she'd want to know if I did something actually cheating-like. She said no.

I got a little annoyed at her answer. I said after all this time of misery Im living from her secrets she really would be happier not knowing about an affair I was in. Is she kidding me?

Sometimes I learn things about her I cannot believe.

Hey, Mike:

I'm not surprised she wouldn't want to know. She probably can't see past how her affair hurt you so badly. Who would willingly seek that kind of pain?

You were testing her with that story. Given how your wife has responded in recovery, do you think it's advisable to test her, rather than simply ask her in a non-lovebusting way?

I'm betting you wanted her to say: "OF course, I'd want to know. I'd be jealous and hurt and outraged." To show that she really does care about your marriage and your needs, etc?

You really don't think she would want to know if you were going outside your marriage for your needs? Or does she feel she doesn't deserve to know, given what she's done?

Hmmmmm....

Mike I can think of forty different ways to have related the story to your wife, including:

• Man, am I glad went to basketball practice tonight.....
• You know, I saved another couple an awful experience.....
• Hey, how can a $2 flashlight save someone thousands.....
• Something happened tonight, and it made me think about how long it's been since we had your diamond setting checked.....

Instead, you chose:

• A suitably grateful lady kissed me tonight, and I'm going to make a big deal about it because YOU HAD AN AFFAIR!

In light of the upcoming Holiday, and the concurrent hopes of peace and goodwill, I'll refrain from any further castigation until next week.

PS: You owe her an apology.

Sometimes I prefer the path of more resistance.

Still can't neuter stuff in every case.

Irony of a lady pecking me on the cheek and subsequent mild guilt vs an 8-year affair with little or any guilt wasn't lost on me and something my mature recovering fww surely can handle.

Were not talking about a delicate flower here who needs coddling and words minced. We are passed that as far as I'm concerned.

Mike,

I can appreciate your feelings. Struggled with em for a good long time. I do think however there is a difference between doing the hard work and taking the path of most resistance. One is accomplishing something positive and the other is simply making things difficult for another reason altogether.

A delicate flower? Maybe, maybe not... My wife still cries if I give a severe look. Despite all she's done, she is still a person with feelings, that we as husbands need to consider.

We may or may never know the depth of guilt felt by our WS, but it doesn't reduce them to the status of verbal punching bad where we can take a quick jab when we walk by. And mature doesn't equal insensitive.

I think what NG was asking you was this: Is there a better way to show love to your wife than you did with that?

CV