The reason I suggest this approach is simple. It is something intimate. Intimacy breeds attraction. You want her to feel she isn't being used again, and that you aren't simply using her. That it is more than just getting satisfaction, but a true act of love.

sadly, when we both get into the shower in this new apartment, it's more comic than romantic. It's tiny! Like scrubbing down inside a clown car!

Your point is taken, though. There are other things we can do that are really intimate. For example, we love to give each other backrubs... actually she's been helping me do it better, how to be more sensual and make a connection when I do it. There's a very good candidate.

If you want some high comedy, jump in the tub and try to figure out where all the limbs go! My H and I have done that, and I've found that the physical closeness and the laughter builds a ton of intimacy.

Is your wife still suicidal? If she is, she needs help. Don't treat her depression too lightly.

Well... no luck for me. Even sexual flirting makes her uncomfortable and defensive. She has zero sex drive at the moment. Honestly mine is pretty depressed too so it's not a terrible concern for now. Actually she says that fear that I'm going to press for sex is the reason she's much less physicallly affectionate with me when we're home together. We're both very physically affectionate people, so it was bothering me that she would push me away. I told her that I think one of our problems in the old relationship was too much pressure around sex and that it would be natural for her to have some aversion there... and so I assured her that I was not looking for sex with her until we BOTH wanted to do it. I said that I want zero pressure around it, but that it is something we should work on because it IS so important in building intimacy. She agreed, and was much more physically affectionate with me when we got home. We held each other for long periods and even cuddled and drew pictures on each others backs with our fingers when we went to bed. I can FEEL intimacy building when we do that, it's very positive.

Frankly, I'm dying for our first UA date together. We have intentionally stayed home over Christmas while everyone we know is away, so we can have "us building " time. We're furnishing and decorating our first unfurnished apartment together during this time; it's a project we can do together that makes us both feel good. I'd rather an activity that gets us out of the house, but hey I'll take what I can get.

She says that she's made the mental decision to try with me, but that her heart isn't in it yet. She's still struggling with feelings that she or I might be happier single, not built for monogamy, can't be happy together etc. I recognize that feeling of hopelessness, and for me, this website was a big part of the solution. But honestly so was time, and actually feeling like I had a way to make am effort.

Today we start reading Basic Concepts together. I'm printing it off, and we're each going to highlight sections that we think are significant, and then we'll talk it through. I just hope we can stay on this positive track together.

That was a disaster. She got through basic concepts to the point of printing out the EN worksheet... and at the first page stopped, looked at me, and said "I can't do this right now."

She said that she feels like I am meeting all of the needs it asks for in the sheet... but there's nothing there about having space, and that's all she wants right now.

First of all - I have everything possible in place, and I know she is not continuing the A. She hasn't looked at pictures of him or anything like that in about 2 weeks, and she tells me she doesn't even miss him any more, that the urges to contact have mostly passed. But she still has this terrible depression.

It's classic depression, too. Sleeps all the time, no will to get out of bed, can't get anything done... constantly moping.

It really turned ugly tonight. I explained that what I really need is for us to figure out how to make our time together NOT PAINFUL. That right now, spending time in each others' presence is draining the life out of both of us, and that's not a path to recovery. I made her explain what it is about my presence that is so draining for her. She said that when she looks at me, she doesn't see a strong man, she doesn't feel safe, she feels like I'm a parental figure (in her life, that means an invasive, intrusive person who tells you what to do), and she feels suffocated.

She has repeatedly asked me for space in the last few days, and I've tried to get out of the house to give it to her. We've lived in EXTREMELY close quarters for 2.5 years btw... and I've been working from home, while she's unemployed. And it's christmas so everyone is out of town and everything is closed.

So I'm trying to give her space. When I do, it's like a totaly different person when I come back. She is just so... recharged.

I listened to her list of emotions about me, and I explained that they aren't going to go away by magic; we have to actually change the way we interact to fix them... even if they're temporary, they're still important to deal with. The biggest one is the feeling of pressure. So I said "ok, what if we live together as room mates for a couple of weeks? We'll still share the bed when we feel like (we have a spare bed for the nights when we DON'T want to), and we'll still cook and take care of each other, but zero romantic or relationship building pressure." She also has some other small things, like she hates it when I wake her up, and she finds flirting too aggressive right now.

I said that was fine, but here is what I need on my side of things in order to manage it:

* Frequent affection, in any way she can show it. When she's not comfortable with physical affection, verbal and other forms are fine too. I don't even need "I love yous" all the time, just frequent reminders that we're in this together and we'll get through it would be helpful.
* Real conversation. She's been totally monosyllabic with me lately, and it's driven me crazy. I'm TRYING to engage her in real conversation, but that's a two person endeavor.
* Fun activities. We have to go out more or less once a day to do something we both enjoy together.

Sound familiar? Affection, Conversation, and Recreation. 3 of the 4 cornerstone ENs. I'm happy to be a room mate if we're hitting those targets. I don't think it will stay just room mates for long.

I also reiterated the base conditions for moving forward, because she had started to complain about the email/FB access to her accounts.

1) No more secret second lives. I'm happy with any method for her to prove that she's actually doing what she says she's doing, if she wants to suggest an alternative. But until then, email and FB access it is.

2) She has to stop the conditions that led to the A. That means transitioning her close male friendships to OUR close male friendships. Fortunately they're all mutual friends, with whom I wasn't playing a very active role before, so this won't be difficult. It also means a big cutback on alcohol, which she had already self-imposed.

3) We have to cut out any reminders of the A and OM to make sure there's no chance of a recurrance. This is tough for her, because it means deleting some photos entirely... I offered to do it together with her, so she doesn't feel quite so assaulted. But the photos have to go.

We agreed on those, but dammit it was a huge withdrawal of a conversation. Exhausting.

I feel like we're back to square 1 here. What's more, our MC is off for the holidays until January, so we don't have anyone to help us through this for another two weeks. Honestly I don't know if I can manage that... after conversations like this it's all I can do to keep from throwing in the towel.

How do you know she is not in touch with the OM when you are "giving her space?"

Look for an affair phone in the house.

The keylogger and cell spyware is clean, right?

Her being in contact explains all of the rest of what you described in your post .

I agree Northwood. I have the exact same feeling. I think she is still in touch with the OM.

I have to admit that it certainly looks like she has taken a hit from the crack pipe.

Do you have a VAR in the house?

If you have a regular (landline) phone in your house, you might try "breaking" it to force her onto a logged cell phone.

No landline. Logging from the keylogger is clean. I haven't had access to her cellphone to install a keylogger there. But she swears up and down that she's not in contact, and she doesn't even have the urge to contact him very often any more. I can't find any evidence that she's gone back to him, or is even connecting with him. When she talks it's about being married to me, or being incapable of monogamy. She says it hurts her to see me trying so hard. Well of course I'm trying so hard!

It hasn't even been a week since full disclosure. It feels like months ago, but still. What if she's still just in withdrawal? I have been all over her to do relationship work. Does that pressure make withdrawal worse?

Or more to the point, how the heck do I deal with her in withdrawal? It's why I say she's in a classic depression: she can't experience pleasure at all. It makes her miserable to be around, to be honest. But it really seems like I'm a drain on her strength. We try to talk about nice, fun things, but we have a limited range of those to work with at the moment. Conversation is strained, and inevitably leads back to the thing we both have on our minds: us. When she's depressed, she is plainly forcing herself to be there and really wants "us" to end. When she has energy, she wants to spend ever more time together and be cuddly.

I'm still in love with the woman. It's absolutely killing me for her to be so dead inside. Part of it is, like I said, I have nothing to do right now. I've taken up tae kwon do and go twice a week. I go out for long walks across the city. I play music. But I'm on holiday from work - there are still so many hours in the day with nothing to fill them but her, or thoughts of her! It doesn't help that I can't seem to sleep for longer than 5-6 hours a night anymore. I wish I could just hide in sleep for a good 8-10 hours a night. I'd say I want to throw myself into work, but doing that is a big part of how this mess started! I don't WANT to be the guy who throws himself into work anymore. I want to be the fun, funny, interesting person I've discovered though Plan A.

Hi Expat,

Haven't read your whole thread, but if you are having relationship talk with her that's not going to make things better in this stage.

Why don't you take her out of the house?
To go for a picknick, play badminton, go hiking,
go find some natural christmas deco outside, be creative.

Sitting in a house while mourning another man and talking about what went wrong did not make her fall in love with you in the old days and it will not now!

Even if everything is closed, you can play board games while not talking about relationship problems.
That is not to say that important things should not be talked about, but you cannot expect wonders for the time being. Just do your best and sit this one out. You can lead her out of the fog.

Just be loving but firm. You are the hero here. You are NOT the pudle prize. YOU have the power to tell her where and if your relationship is going. Don't ask her about her feelings, at this stage all you get will probably be fog babble.

And allthough you are not to watch tv all the time during times of undivided attention, thare is nothing wrong with watching a comedy or a nice movie together (Dickens christmas carol gets anyone thinking about the meaning of life). If you sit together and rub her feet or scratch her back it can take your mind off things and change your mood (must pick the right movie though - no adultery or follow your heart movies, but either something cheerful, or one you can talk about later, and nothing that makes one sad.

Look, she obviously has too much time on her hands and you should NOT give her space. Do something together that distracts the two of you. Redecorating sounds great, but top it of with a date, even if you only go out for ice cream.

Stay strong and God bless,

Happyheart

Hi HappyHeart - thanks for your encouragement.

I'm really at my limit here. This is all stuff that she has to process - they're her demons to deal with. I'm basically a psychologically healthy person. I wasn't perfect in our relationship, and there were lots of things I could have done better. But her turning around like this... it's killing me.

I have the opportunity to go away to Hawaii with my parents and siblings for a couple of weeks. And I think I really need that, for me. I'm going to give the decision some time, but if there's no improvement today, later on I'll tell my wife about it. She should go out of town too, back to her friends and family. I agree that she should NOT just stay in this city all alone to mope.

To be honest I don't think the affair is the problem here. It never was. It was just a symptom of a much deeper unhappiness and lack of self that she felt, that she has to work through.

Today I looked up divorce law. I'm really losing hope here. Merry Christmas indeed.

Why not take her with you to Hawai? If she does not have a job, she can.

After all, if it doesn't work in Hawaii where else could it work?

I said those same things about this time last year. My wife does suffer from depression, so I get where you're coming from with living with someone with that.

But being in an affair makes it worse.

Put spyware on that phone so that you'll know for sure.


Sheesh, take her to Hawaii with you like happyheart suggested!

If all y'all do is sit and stare at each other, it'd drive anyone crazy. You need a change of scenery...c'mon now

Lostexpat,

I dont know if you have been following my thread but currently I am in a place pretty similar to yours, only a few weeks out from NC and a month out from DDay. I completely understand what you are feeling- you feel like you are giving it all you got but not really getting back what you need to feel better- its so hard having to be the strong one when the WS is the one who screwed up not you- I daily think about ending the relationship because of the pain that he has caused me, but I just keep telling myself to take it one day at a time. I try to channel my bad energy into filling his ENs- ( if im having a really bad day i actually go out and by my WH a small gift)- And slowly, very slowly my WH seems to be more receptive to my attempts to fill his ENs ( granted i constantly second guess whether he is just responding back to keep me from kicking him out, but im trying really hard not to seccond guess his actions and go with the flow)

I totally agree with the other posters who say not to talk about the relationship right now, that just seems to aggravate things and my WH just gets me upset or he gets angry every time we do and that is certainly not helping fill the love bank.

This is probably the issue right here. She is talking to him on the phone still. I would STOP giving her "space" so she can't talk to him anymore. I predict she will get pretty mean about giving her "space" when she isn't able to speak to him for awhile. So be prepared for that. "Space" is code for "need space to see/speak with my affair partner.

Are you looking on her cell phone for the history? What about the cell phone bill? Do you have access to it?

I have access to the phone bills and call logs, and I check her phone regularly. No calls afaik.

Taking her to Hawaii would be really hard. First of all there's a ton of pressure from my family. Going away with them... trying to repair under the microscope would be brutal. *I* don't like the thought, never mind her!

She'll get out of town, too. I think I have to remember that fog doesn't clear the instant you cut off contact. She has only really been 4 weeks without contact (in week 3 she got drunk and sent him a message from her secret account... which has since been deleted). Then in week 5 she came back to this city and in a lot of ways, suddenly had to deal with the whole thing again. She is just starting to come out of the depression... she can barely get out of the house to run errands!

At this point I think this is the end of the fog one day at a time. Frustrating as all hell though. She and I both still have sharp downswings in mood, when we just have to not be in the room together. When we're both tired AND depressed, it can get ugly.

Scientistmom, that's a pretty darn good description right there. Strength!

Lost, I keep up with a lot of posts through email and I clicked on a link to one of yours but I guess you deleted it for some reason. In it you mention that your WW is reading Eat, Pray, Love. I just want to warn you that that book is about the worst book on the planet that a WW trying to recover should be reading. It reeks of a wayward mentality of entitlement! If I were you I'd find a way to misplace it! They did choose the perfect actress to star in the movie though. Ugh!