Listen, everybody, I'm not against the PIQ (poster in question)but I have had some experience with a serial cheater. My niece is (was) married to one. The similarities between him and the PIQ are striking. Both had multiple affairs in a short period of time, both were guilt-ridden and confessed, both entered into counseling, to prevent another affair, but (at least in my niece's husband's case) failed. I simply feel that the BS should be encouraged to find his or her own happiness, regardless of whether or not the WS is a part of it. Counseling him or her to be patient, to wait until the WS works out their issues, is asking for a "leap of faith", which neither we (nor the WS) have a right to ask. Thje efforts of the PIQ at self-improvement, should be encouraged, yes, but I feel that these efforts should be completely independent of any attempt at R. Before any attempt at R should be made, the BS should be allowed time to heal, and the WS should be in control of the issues that lead up to their cheating behavior. I am a BS advocate more than I am a marriage advocate.

NG , you have a very valid point. I may be more critical, because my own FWW has been so marvelous, and I'm skeptical of the PIQ because of it, and because of the multiple cheating.

mirrormirror, I know you mean well, but you have no experience or expertise in SAVING such marriages. Harley DOES. These marriages can be saved if both parties are committed to Marriage Builders. We have several such couples over on the weekend forum and some that post over here.

The bottom line is that what matters is DR HARLEY'S opinion, not our own personal philosophies that are based on anecdotes. Most of us here only know how to screw up marriages, after all.

In the case of young marriages with no children, Harley typically recommends abandoning the marriage. But if the parties want to save it, he helps them save it. And it can be saved. I told them both they should just cut their losses and so did several others. They did not take that advice and that is their prerogative. But it makes no sense to continually hammer them if they have decided to save their marriage.


And this is not how Harley would direct a recovery. If it is decided to save the marriage, the BS does not "heal" alone, they heal together.

Its real important to stick to Dr Harleys tried and true advice if we are going to be posting to folks in need. WE are not qualified to save marriages, he IS.

p.s. Marriage Builders is NOT a marriage at all cost program. The Harleys tell people every day they should separate or get divorced when it is warranted. The jury is out on this couple. If Harley sees that this is hopeless, he will tell her husband to file for divorce. Dr Harley tells people all the time when he feels their situation is hopeless.

ML, I don't question DR. Harley, but I DO question some of the posters. Dr. Harley will do what he is well able to do. In the spirit of fairness, I tried to start a thread dealing with multiple affairs, to gain more insight into this issue, but for some reason it wasn't allowed.

In truth, Melody, my heart goes out to this particular BS. I guess , in part , because of my niece, and her horrible situation.

Counseling him or her to be patient, to wait until the WS works out their issues, is asking for a "leap of faith", which neither we (nor the WS) have a right to ask.

The "right" to "ask"? Huh? When did the right to ask for for consideration, to offer recommendation based on experience and group-history, ever become subject to revocation?

And let us also keep in mind, mm, that the BH came to this site and initiated the discussion. It might not be to your preference that the vast majority of the posts all aligned with the concepts, "Do nothing overly rashly; Observe WW's efforts at remaking herself; Consider judging her on not what she (indisputably) WAS, but what she shows the potential of BEING; Learn some of the major principles of this site to complement her efforts," but I'm going to have to say that they were proper and consistent with MB practices.

BH has apparently (implicitly, if not explicitly) agreed to give WW a chance to convince him of her worthiness. He has NOT committed to unchangeable recovery. You may disagree with him on this, as you disagreed with us on our recommendation. Telling him, however, that he is wrong to take his time, because you would not do so is.....presumptuous.

The efforts of the PIQ at self-improvement, should be encouraged, yes, but I feel that these efforts should be completely independent of any attempt at R... I am a BS advocate more than I am a marriage advocate.

Kind like saying that the necessity of driving from Seligman, AZ to St. George, UT should be encouraged, but be completely independent of any consideration of that large canyon between them.

You're somewhat contradicting yourself, here. The WW's entire effort at self-improvement is driven and constrained by what healing must be done for her BH. As an example: If WW felt that part of her weakness was poor self-esteem, and becoming more successful at work through more hours would address that, she should still forego that improvement initiative if FBH were of the opinion that having more UA facetime was vital to his healing.

I'm sorry for your niece's situation, and the atrocious behavior of her WH. However, I would suggest that taking a specific and positing an immutable law to the general is not justified. Flipping a coin and having it land "heads" does not mean that every coin-flip will have the same result.

If you see any of the posters post something that is contradictory to Dr Harleys advice, you should mod notify it and let the mods remove it. I saw that thread and didn't see such a thing.

We don't need a new thread dealing with serial cheaters. If you are concerned about serial cheaters, then go listen to my call to Dr Harley back in 2006 asking about them: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=578

There are several other radio clips addressing this subject in the radio archives. The solution is pretty much the same as any other affair, except the serial cheater has to implement more EPs than usual.

Exactly so. I am separated because my WH does not measure up to the wayward bar for recovery according to the MB principles. He did not want to go and it hurt me to kick him out, but MB is not a "marriage at all costs" site and following the principles protects me from a false recovery.

If you see posters putting up non MB advice, click notify and the mods will remove it if it goes against Dr H's principles.

NG, let me be clear about this. I do not feel that any pressure, persuasion, suggestion OF ANY KIND should be asked of the BS....any BS, not just this particular one, without concrete, provable benefit for the BS. "what she shows the potential for being", is just double talk for asking for that "leap of faith", I was explaining. Speaking from my own situation, I truly believe that my hard-line approach was beneficial in the early stages of Recovery, and I applaud this BS for being non-commital, and encourage him to continue. I don't believe that he has stated anywhere that he is willing to R, has he? There again, I came to MB at a time when I was certain that divorce was inevitable, and in the beginning I gave my WW no encouragement whatsoever.

Exactly right. All WSs have to offer proof and transparency under an MB recovery plan. Doro has offered these things to her BH but he has not taken her up on the offer yet. He has not yet decided to embark on recovery yet and that is his right.



That is correct, he is talking to Steve but he has not decided to embark on a full recovery yet.



Hmmm. I'm going to be pedantic here. You certainly were not afraid of divorcing and leaned heavily towards it. That was perfect, because as we all know the weak willed "marriage at all costs" type of BS is doomed. I've only ever seen tough customers recover - whether a personal or marital recovery.

But 'certain'? You had had a fully repentent spouse for three weeks before posting here. You owned your house and felt confident a divorce was financially viable and that your daughters could weather it. A divorce would have meant no risk of a FR. If you were certain, you would have just done it. You wouldn't have posted on a site called marriagebuilders.

But there was your lovebank and shared history to consider. That's always the snag for the BS.

Like you, an immediate divorce was a reasonable option for me. I'm young and have no children.

But my lovebank and sense of commitment means I do not regret giving MB a shot. When I do D I will know I did everything I could.

The MB plans will never fail a BS, even in situations like mine where the wayward is unrepentant.

Indie, an "offer", is just more words and possibly more lies. Doro must prove every word she speaks, the wise BS takes nothing on credit, because the WW has none. My FWW did everything on her own. She suggested the Poly, she arranged for the post-nup, she quit her job, without even the slightest encouragement from me, in fact it was quite the opposite, I told her repeatedly that she was wasting her time. I had gone so far as to plan a weekend getaway with another Lady, and had actually paid for the hotel. What stopped me? Her concrete actions, her radical honesty about the affair, proven by the polygraph. AS far as my lovebank goes, she was in serious arrears. The only credits she had were our daughters. I really believe that immediately after D-day, I didn't love her at all. She made herself into somebody I could possibly love again, but no amount of words did it, hard work did, and still does. I now know that my wife is willing to live or die for our marriage, and for me.

MM, we are actually standing on the same side of the discussion here, but remain separated by our views of individual responsibility for "management" of the process with the MB program.

Excerpts from your post, annotated:

My FWW did everything on her own. Not the USUAL MB plan of attack

She suggested the Poly, she arranged for the post-nup, she quit her job, without even the slightest encouragement from me, in fact it was quite the opposite... So, NO Joint Agreement

I told her repeatedly that she was wasting her time. Love-Buster

I had gone so far as to plan a weekend getaway with another Lady, and had actually paid for the hotel. Let's not even go here!

Do you see my point? You had "boots on the ground" in your damaged marital home. You had the insights into the dynamic between you (history and currency combined) to drive the process where you wanted, using the tools that you believed would work.

Now NOBODY here would accept a priori the idea that a good way for a BH to facilitate recovery is to schedule an extramarital fling and throw it in the WW's face. And we cannot project what the long-term effect of that might be. But it was YOUR situation, YOUR decision, and YOUR ownership of the results that were paramount here. Nobody can pull your MB badge for heresy.

So I would suggest giving the PIQ and her situation the same consideration.

I was afraid of this as soon as you made that 'free agent' comment.

This was an EA that almost went PA. You did prevent it from becoming a PA right? I know you have told the boards that women were coming on to you, and you got 2x4s for poor boundaries, but this is the first mention of it actually becoming an RA. An RA has huge ramifications for your recovery. Your wifes actions should not have been the thing that stopped you from a PA, your own boundaries should have done that.

What work have you done on your boundaries? Have you eliminated all opposite sex friendhips for example?

MM,

Sad to see that what stopped you from hitting the hotel with an AP was your W and not your own principles, boundaries and sense of commitment.

MM, what came out in your posts to the other poster was not concern, but anger towards someone who **is working** to change. What came out is control.

You can only control yourself. You cannot control another person. Not for long. It's an illusion. You know why? Because outward control only enforces outward conformity. It doesn't change the heart. I would go so far as to suggest that what you really did was simply dodge a bullet. NG has made some good points on some key steps here that you missed/did wrong.

One last thing that stands out to me... You said that after Dday you didn't love your wife at all... I may be off on this, but I will point it out anyway... You posted on the other thread that you don't turn love on and off like a faucet. Yet here you are claiming you did. So what's the deal here? I am not justifying the other poster at all, simply pointing out the hypocrisy of your own words. What's good for the goose is good for the gander as they say...

Forced conformity works well in the Marine Corps. It doesn't work well in marriages.

CV

NG, you understand that this was in the first few days after D-day. I, and certainly my wife, knew nothing about MB, and I only by reputation. MB was recommended to me. Love busters, EN's, POJA, were unknown ideas, but actually we had really good instincts, and insight, so we could "wing it", until we had studied MB further and could give names to some of the actions we were already taking.

Indie and CV. I have already said in other posts, that I am not a religious person. My marriage vows were made TO her and hers TO me, when I discovered the affair, and that she had broken her vows, that made mine superfluous. Our marriage is and was ALWAYS a union of two independent persons of free will. If the covenant or pact is broken by one party it can no longer be binding on the other party.Following D-day, I did what I could to protect my children and to heal myself. My wife , at that time , was no longer my concern.

That's nonsense, you didn't need this website to know that rubbing your revenge affair was very wrong.

You were angry and doing something you knew was wrong in revenge felt good, that's all there is to it.

But the point is not to harp on about the past but to ensure your RA is accounted for in your recovery plan.

For example do you have any contact, even accidental sporadic contact or second hand Facebook contact with this OW?

I am not religious either. I had a civil wedding too.

Nevertheless vows made in law and as part of our society are binding.

One party cannot wake up one day and 'decide' that the vows don't apply.

Just as your wife should not have decided that your behaviour. In the marriage made an A justifiable, nor is her behaviour towards you an excuse for a RA.

Marriage does not work that way.An A is a reason to seek a divorce but that does not make it a good excuse for a RA.

As far as protecting your children goes, one idea might have been to set an example of how married people should behave by not booking a hotel room with an OW while still a married man.

The fact that you don't know this makes me wonder if you have read anything on this site.

CV, I NEVER, at any time or in any fashion, attempted to coerce, force, persuade, beg or demand anything from her , AT ALL. During our few and short conversations , immediately after discovery, I emphatically told her that the marriage was over and any efforts at R were wastes of time. The only suggestions I made, were for her to seek therapy (if you recall, she was close to a nervous breakdown and possibly suicidal) and the other suggestion was for her to attempt to reconcile with her daughters. She made the decision to attempt to regain my love , independent of any prompting from me and without any real hope that it would accomplish anything. Why, because she loved and wanted ME more than she wanted anything else, even life. It was and is her total dedication that brought me back .