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I realize that my independent behavior - which I see not as "independence" but as lack of respect, since that was really what it was not just independence - is a major lovebuster, and it's taken me a while to get rid of it. Really, I still fall back on it, and I still need to actively think "you need to include him in this conversation." It's become easier now that I don't have access to our finances - because in order to do most things, I have to let him know since almost everything involves $$!

We're not trying to cut corners - I think it's more that we haven't formally sat down and said "we are working through these steps." I see the value in that, and we'll discuss that.
Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Prisca
This Thanksgiving was different, though. My family asked me to bake homemade rolls. I talked to Markos first, then agreed. When the time came to bake the rolls, I checked with him again to see if he was still enthusiastic about me spending the time away from him baking. He was thrilled that I showed him such consideration.

I was indeed. Asking me the second time to see if I was still enthusiastic made massive love bank deposits, and I'm thrilled that my wife is so considerate of me!

You can start being this considerate, this thoughtful, by following the policies unilaterally, on your own.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Thanks Makos... I do try to do that on my own. I don't know if I was doing that 100% on thanksgiving, but I do know that in past years I would have been a lot more defensive, argumentative, and frustrated (e.g., engaging in disrespectful judgments). I certainly wasn't perfect, but I think that I did some things differently that helped out.

Thanks!

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Can't believe it's been almost a week since I checked in. It feels like the thread has moved away from the original topic... perhaps I should start a new one?

Any thoughts on how to avoid lovebusting when I'm feeling anxious or nervous? I tend to lose track of things and my very worst lovebusting goes on there (it was a major trigger, at least in my excuse-laden brain, for lying, to keep with the original theme)?

Thoughts? I've gotten great advice so far, keep it coming!

Thanks!!!

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Originally Posted by hopestochange
Any thoughts on how to avoid lovebusting when I'm feeling anxious or nervous? I tend to lose track of things and my very worst lovebusting goes on there (it was a major trigger, at least in my excuse-laden brain, for lying, to keep with the original theme)?

Practice makes perfect! And if you can't get out of the habit of committing lovebusters, I would try an anger management course that focuses on relaxation techniques. This was one of my biggest problems and by just training myself to stop doing it, it comes easy now. When you don't it for a while, your brain develops other neural pathways. Do you have the newest Lovebusters book? Markos can correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the first 5 chapters do a good job of adddressing angry outbursts.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Thanks - I really need to practice relaxing more and not getting angry or out of control and self-pitying. I feel like I need to sort of separate myself from the situation (and even from DH's anger - I do think he's justified in his feelings, but if I let it get me anxious I respond in the worst possible ways). I will have to check out the newest version of Lovebusters (suspect I am getting it for Christmas one way or another).

Would it help to think of pausing? I find it hard, especially when I feel like I must answer or am being pressed for an answer immediately. I don't 'do my best work' in those situations.

Of course the best thing of all would be if I hadn't engaged in all this hurtful behavior to begin with, so that DH wouldn't feel the need to be upset so often! I've managed to create a situation where his nerves are just shot. I liked Mako's advice (not sure - perhaps it was someone else) about avoiding outbusts on one's own as a start.

ML - I often feel like it's "easier said than done" for me when the answer is "just trained myself to stop doing it." *How* did you train yourself?

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One of the first things you should do when you feel frustrated is ... nothing. Learn to say or do nothing.

So, yes, if you are being pressed for an immediate answer and you feel your frustration mounting ... then that means you are becoming irrational, so by definition, anything you are thinking of to say or do is insane, and is best left undone.

Here is a broadcast from Dr. Harley about how to control anger:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=238

Listening to Dr. Harley's broadcast on a regular basis is a great way to pick up lots of information about controlling anger.

One serious issue I'm seeing is that your husband is having angry outbursts, too. What is he doing to address this?


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Thanks for the advice. DH is trying to reduce the angry outbursts. He's spoken about going to see our counselor about this individually.

Question: how many of you felt kind of "fake" when you started being appropriately considerate of your partner's needs? I felt that way the other night, and felt guilty about it. Is it just a temporary feeling (I think it said as much in His Needs/Her Needs) and eventually it becomes natural and instinctive?

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Originally Posted by hopestochange
Question: how many of you felt kind of "fake" when you started being appropriately considerate of your partner's needs? I felt that way the other night, and felt guilty about it. Is it just a temporary feeling (I think it said as much in His Needs/Her Needs) and eventually it becomes natural and instinctive?

You got it! Learning new habits always feels very fake at first. Pretty soon it becomes second nature.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Honestly it doesn't even sound like it's my voice... I don't know if that's why I stop sometimes, because it just doesn't feel natural, and I think I've confused "natural" with "right."

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Quote
So, yes, if you are being pressed for an immediate answer and you feel your frustration mounting ... then that means you are becoming irrational, so by definition, anything you are thinking of to say or do is insane, and is best left undone.

That's very good advice. It's pretty much over, I think, but I found myself doing that this morning.

He wants a divorce, doesn't want to hear anything else.

A problem I have had is that I give in when I am feeling that pressure. I feel like he won't accept anything else. So I wind up saying dumb things, lying, agreeing to things that I can't or won't follow through on... because I feel so much pressure (don't know if I am right or wrong about the pressure being real but it feels that way to me).

I don't feel like I can stop or take a break. My tendency to avoid things doesn't help here, but I feel like I need to find a middle ground between giving in and running away.

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Originally Posted by hopestochange
Quote
So, yes, if you are being pressed for an immediate answer and you feel your frustration mounting ... then that means you are becoming irrational, so by definition, anything you are thinking of to say or do is insane, and is best left undone.

That's very good advice. It's pretty much over, I think, but I found myself doing that this morning.

He wants a divorce, doesn't want to hear anything else.

Why? What happened?

A

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Originally Posted by hopestochange
[
He wants a divorce, doesn't want to hear anything else.

What happened??


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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hopes2change,

I have been reading your thread, but I come at it from the perspective of your husband. I recently divorced my husband dut to his compulsive lying. The foundational trust for our marriage had so many stress cracks in it from his many lies that it (i.e., that I) had finally crumbled. My ex was not ready/willing to try to overcome his lying. However, even now, six month after the divorce, I still harbor hope. Hope for change within him.

Your situation differs in that you seem to want to do what it takes.

Okay...so your husband says he wants a divorce...This is where he is saying he needs more. Words or promises of change from you hold no standing. He needs action from you.

You need to step up your game. You need to take action and show him that you would move heaven and earth for him.

This means, find a counselor who specializes in impulse-control issues. Deal with the lying. This is not a marital problem at the root... it is a behavioral issue. Address the lying specifically. Taking action may also mean exposing yourself. Just as a wayward eexposes himself/herself anf the affair. It should be so for the compulsive liar. It releases the chains that Satan has on you and your marriage and allows God to work fully in your hears and minds.

I think you and your marriage have so much hope! I pray for God's healing as you and your husband walk this difficult road.

Action is what is going to establish a new foundation of trust. Please, don't give up!!!

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Originally Posted by breakingpoint
This means, find a counselor who specializes in impulse-control issues. Deal with the lying. This is not a marital problem at the root... it is a behavioral issue.

breakingpoint, thanks for your feedback but MB *IS* a behavioral program. It does address and correct behavioral issues. Marriage Builders is a behavioral program that addresses and corrects dishonesty. It works because it corrects bad behaviors.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Melody-

I'm not saying that MB will not be useful for hopes2change. But Dr. Harley specifically addresses that addictions (he uses alcoholism as an example) need to be dealt with first. THEN he says the MB program can be used to recover the marriage.

Compulsive lying is an addiction (impulse-control, similar to gambling). That is what I was trying to tell hopes2change.

Unfortunately, compulsive lying is not merely a bad behavior.


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Compulsive lying is a very typical problem that is resolved by this program. He doesn't tell people to seek outside help because this program resolves it. Dr Harley has several chapters and articles on lying. Her type of lying is very common and is addressed and resolved by this program. It is not something that is outside of this program. Dr Harley in no place classifies this as an "addiction" that needs outside help.

Originally Posted by Dr Harley
In my book, His Needs, Her Needs (chapter 7), I write about three kinds of liars: 1) born liars, 2) avoid trouble liars and 3) protector liars. From what you've said about her, she sounds like the avoid trouble liar. These people do things that they know are unacceptable, then when confronted they lie to avoid getting into trouble. Here are some of the points I make in this chapter:


The born liar is different than the avoid trouble liar in that he doesn't seem to know the difference between truth and fiction, and makes things up for no apparent reason or purpose. An avoid trouble liar, on the other hand, is very much aware of the truth and only lies to avoid getting into trouble.

The "avoid trouble" liar is used to getting their way. They usually have a long history of agreeing to anything and then doing what they please. When confronted with their lie, they promise they will never do it again, another lie, of course. They are usually very cheerful people because they are living a life that suits them just fine. If people would just stop telling them what to do, they think there would be no need for dishonesty. What they think makes them dishonest, is people trying to change them. They don't think it's right, so they tell people whatever they want to hear just to get them off their backs.

The way to help an "avoid trouble" liar learn to be truthful is to focus attention on honesty and ignore everything else for a while. I encourage such people to tell the truth in return for their spouses not telling them what to do. In other words, minimize the consequences of the acts that they are afraid will get them into trouble. Instead of trying to punish your wife for going back on her promises, I would put more emphasis on safe and pleasant negotiation, where she is free to explain what she wants to do, and give you a chance to offer alternatives that are genuinely attractive to her.

What happens now is that she feels she is "made" to agree with you. You have told her that unless she does this or that, you will leave her. Even in the beginning, you explained that unless she stopped smoking, you would not even date her. She has learned to agree with anything and then do what she pleases to avoid a fight or being abandoned. But what if there were no fight? What if you wouldn't leave her? I recommend that you try to stop fighting with her, and you stop threatening to leave her. When she tells you she smokes, tell her you would appreciate it if she didn't, and offer her incentives to stop. But I wouldn't use threats.

Infidelity is quite another matter, of course, but I think she has gone a long way just to have told you about it. I don't think she wants to make a habit of cheating on you, but she doesn't want you to threaten to kick her out either. I may sound naive on this point, but I would try to create a non-threatening environment for her first, and then see if she cheats on you.

There are two essential conditions that you must follow if you want her to negotiate with you honestly. They must be safe and enjoyable. In other words, when you negotiate you should never threaten her with punishment, or make the negotiations unpleasant for her. Instead, you should be willing to allow her to do whatever she wants if you have not reached an agreement, without recrimination.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5016_qa.html


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one Melody.

Perhaps I'm coming from a totally different situation the stems from narcissim. I just saw a lot of similar thought patterns in hope2change.

I will refrain from giving advice. My hurt is still so very raw. It hurts to even debate this point with you.

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Originally Posted by breakingpoint
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one Melody.

But you are disagreeing with Dr Harley, who is a licensed clinical psychologist with experience in treating compulsive lying. Successfully. Dr Harley is a behavioralist and a psychologist. So why would someone need to consult a counselor with LESS experience when this program works? Harley has been very upfront on what his program will or won't treat and compulsive lying is not one of them.



"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Please don't attack me because my therapist disagrees with Dr. Harley, if only for the aspect of compulsive lying. I was not trying to discredit Dr Harley and what I believe is a completely effective program he has built. I apologize for offending anyone. I'm sorry.

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