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How much of a "participant" is anyone who is snot slinging drunk? I do agree with the willing. Guess I'd be more concerned if I overheard a completely different conversation other than the one I did which was him telling her how much the whole thing repulsed him rather than 'hey, when can we do it again?'

I understand this isn't a real popular view. It may not even be mine. I do seem to be all over the place but just posted how I feel currently. I appreciate the feed back. It gives me things to think about even if it seems I'm not. I've actually followed all advice I've gotten here even when every part of me didn't want to. Like expose. God, that was hard.

Reves #2580315 01/02/12 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Reves
Hi, like Melody said, did all that. The strange thing is he doesn't have boundary issues with women. I know that sounds stupid as I'm here so obviously something wasn't working, but there is nothing in our past, and I've known him over 15 years that ever even hinted of that.

Did he have good boundaries with women when he had his affair?

There *IS* something in your past; your husband has just ended a 2 month long affair. So, it is not a "hint," it is a reality. And unless the conditions change that led to the affair, you are facing more affairs.

The reality is that your husband does not have good boundaries with women, and unless and until that is addressed, this is very likely to happen again.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Reves #2580316 01/02/12 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Reves
How much of a "participant" is anyone who is snot slinging drunk? I do agree with the willing.

So it is ok if he has affairs as long as he is drunk? Is that alright with you? And was he drunk for the past 2 months when he was hiding his phone and sneaking around?

Does he have good boundaries around women when he is drunk and you are not around?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Reves #2580318 01/02/12 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Reves
I remember my husband calling saying he was too drunk to drive home and could I pick him up. I had just gotten the kids to bed and asked if he could just crash on the couch and I'd see him in the morning. I remember thinking how awesome he didn't drive and slept like a baby.

At the least, your H needs to promise to avoid drinking at all when solo. He was apparently drunk when all of this happened. Boundaries are often loosened while drunk.


Married 1980
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Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley
Anything that takes one spouse away from the other overnight is an invitation for an affair. But when an opposite-sex co-worker tends to join a spouse on business trips, red flags should be flying in all directions. Any evidence that this relationship is anything more than pure business is, from my perspective, a gigantic clue that an affair might be in progress. That's also the case if a spouse and opposite-sex co-worker spend a great deal of time working together.

We are all wired to have an affair. We can all fall in love with someone of the opposite sex if that person meets one of our emotional needs. If you don't think it can happen to you because of your conviction or will-power, you are particularly vulnerable to an affair. And if you think your spouse would never have an affair, you are also vulnerable.

Look what happened to poor Kathy Lee Gifford. She stated publicly and wrote in one of her books that she trusted her husband completely, that he would never cheat on her. But she should not have trusted her husband. If she would have taken the steps she is now taking to help him avoid another affair, the first would never have taken place, and she would have avoided all its pain and embarrassment. I don't trust my wife completely and she doesn't trust me, and that's why neither of us have ever had an affair. Lack of trust does not make spouses paranoid and miserable, it makes their marriages safe.



"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


MelodyLane #2580328 01/02/12 04:42 PM
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Would you agree to him socialising without you again? Being somewhere overnight without you again?

Would he drink without you again?

Would he respond to another woman again? Drunk or otherwise?

Would he lie to you about something he did ever again? Hide the truth from you if it was something likely to hurt him?

Has he told the full truth to you in this case? Or has he watered it down?

Will your MC attend to these issues (like the MB plan does) or wil they just hand you tissues, get you to vent, rake over old ground while clocking up your bill.

Dishonesty, poor boundaries and a segregated lifestyle in which you socialise apart led to this affair.

The conditions of your marriage need to change.

When you get broken into, you get a new security system. You mend the fences.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

Reves #2580351 01/02/12 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Reves
How much of a "participant" is anyone who is snot slinging drunk?

Reves. Sorry if I am missing something here and correct me if I am wrong. My understanding is that you believe this was a drunken one night stand that happened 2 months ago.

I am having trouble believing that OW is still calling him 12 times in one day and showing up at his office (all 2 months later) ...if it was only a ONS.

Is this is a real life version of the movie "Fatal Attraction?" Is that what your WH is saying? OW has been pursuing your WH for 2 months totally uninvited by him?

I don't believe that for one second. What am I missing?



ME: BW
HIM: FWH
Married 18 yrs
DDay 09/2008 and 12/2008

Recovered

Reves #2580359 01/02/12 06:15 PM
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Quote
I don't want to talk about it. I don't need to hear the apologies and can see at a physical level what this has done to him. I know I may get some feedback that I'm being a sucker...which I'm ok with. I actually trust him and feel ready to put this behind us.
You're not being a sucker. This is YOUR recovery. Not everyone needs to hear every detail. Not everybody wants apologies and to see their wayward gnashing their teeth. (Side joke: I was going to say that "not everyone needs to see their wayward rent their garments" but I know NeverGuessed will be on my post in a heartbeat to debate grammatical usage, LOL!)

My only concern for you right now is the part of your post that I bolded. Don't confuse trusting the fact that he is remorseful with trusting him to never allow this to happen again. The hours and days post D-Day are distressing to a remorseful wayward. If a gorgeous naked woman threw herself at him right now, he would probably run screaming. It's when recovery is truly underway and things seem to be settling down that temptation can occur. The two of you have some work ahead of you to rebuild and affair-proof your marriage. I suspect you'll make it, though. smile



D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!

pokerface #2580362 01/02/12 06:42 PM
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If it isn't poor boundaries that your Husband needs to fix, then you have serious issues in your marriage, more serious than his ONS. Poor boundaries can most certainly be fixed. I think what you are really saying is that you aren't willing to have a marriage where you are going to have to monitor him, and you want to "trust" him again. Well, sorry hun, you aren't going to have that the way you want it, ever again. Not even if you divorced this man and married someone new.

Your DDay wasn't that far off, and you haven't begun to really digest all that has happened.

Also, your WH was a most willing participant in his affair, and letting him off the hook will harm your marriage, and him. He must fully accept all his consequences, and become a man with better boundaries. Remember, he LIED to you for MONTHS. That betrayal continued every single day. How much longer would he have done that if you hadn't found out?


BW(Me)aka Scotty:37
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pokerface #2580372 01/02/12 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by pokerface
Originally Posted by Reves
How much of a "participant" is anyone who is snot slinging drunk?

Reves. Sorry if I am missing something here and correct me if I am wrong. My understanding is that you believe this was a drunken one night stand that happened 2 months ago.

I am having trouble believing that OW is still calling him 12 times in one day and showing up at his office (all 2 months later) ...if it was only a ONS.

Is this is a real life version of the movie "Fatal Attraction?" Is that what your WH is saying? OW has been pursuing your WH for 2 months totally uninvited by him?

I don't believe that for one second. What am I missing?


This is why I think a poly is a must. He just wants her back and will do anything - including lie. Hopefully he will learn that radical honesty will be insisted upon with proof.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

maritalbliss #2580383 01/02/12 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by maritalbliss
I suspect you'll make it, though. smile


Me too, maritalbliss. I would have a good feeling about this couple if we can just get this trust issue out of the way. Trust must be earned back following an affair, not given away in a short cut back to the status quo.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

Scotland #2580386 01/02/12 08:10 PM
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Reves, has he ever explained just how she got his phone number after this one-off incident?

Can his explanation be verified?


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

indiegirl #2580410 01/02/12 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by indiegirl
Me too, maritalbliss. I would have a good feeling about this couple if we can just get this trust issue out of the way. Trust must be earned back following an affair, not given away in a short cut back to the status quo.
ITA, indie. Reves, if your WH senses that you trust him and want to move on, he will have learned nothing from this. And you should not trust your WH in any event. Look what your blind trust got you so far.

My FWH has been the perfect example of a reformed wayward. Do you think I trust him completely? Um...that'd be NO. He's done nothing to warrant suspicion and has earned my limited trust in him. I'll never trust him 'completely' again. How silly I was, for ever trusting him completely in the first place. crazy


D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!

maritalbliss #2580500 01/03/12 08:45 AM
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Reves, the offer to take a poly is one you should NOT turn down. Doubts and questions that are not even on your radar screen today can be quashed forever with this one action.

Start gathering/formulating the questions now (the best are those that can be answered yes-or-no). Schedule the session for maybe 30 - 60 days from now.

This will not be a sneak attack on WH; you're going to give him the questions beforehand so the "shock" does not interfere with the clarity of the results.

I think two questions that you are going to need answered, which you and he have probably not explored yet are:
  • Had POSOW ever tried to initiate an improper relationship before the evening in question?
  • Earlier in the evening, did WH suspect that something might happen that night?
You might not like to think about the answers to those two, but you should have them.

MelodyLane #2580511 01/03/12 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Reves

Reves,

The first step is for him to end all contact for life with the OW. That means sending her a no contact letter and cutting off contact. I will post the letter below. Next step is change the environment that led to the affair. The reason he had the affair is he hangs out with friends and you DON"T WATCH him. Too much trust leads to sloppy boundaries that leads to affairs. The separate leisure lifestyles you and your H lead is an invitation to an affair.

I would also expose the affair to your families and most especially your circle of friends. They need to know so they don't invite you to an event with the OW. And your families need to know so they can support your marriage.

Get the book, Surviving an Affair by Dr Harley, and follow the program outlined in there. In a nutshell, here is what it will take to recover your marriage:

Originally Posted by Dr Harley in Requirements for Recovery
The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide.

I'll describe these two parts to you in a little more detail.

The first step, complete separation from the lover and eliminating the conditions that made the affair possible, requires a complete understanding of the affair. All information regarding the affair must be revealed to the betrayed spouse, including the name of the lover, the conditions that made the affair possible (travel, internet, etc.), the details of what took place during the affair, all correspondence, and anything else that would shed light on the tragedy.

This information is important for two reasons: (1) it creates accountability and transparency, making it essentially impossible for the unfaithful spouse to continue the affair or begin a new one unnoticed, and (2) it creates trust for the betrayed spouse, providing evidence that the affair is over and a new one is unlikely to take its place. The nightmares you experience are likely to continue until you have the facts that
will lead to your assurance that your husband can be trusted.

An analysis of the wayward spouse's childhood or emotional state of mind in an effort to discover why he or she would have an affair is distracting and unnecessary. It takes precious time away from finding the real solutions. I know why people have affairs: We are all wired for it. Given certain conditions, we would all do it. Given other conditions, however, none of us would do it. So the goal of the first step is to discover the conditions that made the affair possible and eliminate them.

After the first step is completed, the second step is to create a romantic relationship between you and your husband using my 10 Basic Concepts here
as your guide. While your relationship may be improving, it won't lead to a romantic relationship because you are not being transparent toward each other. Unspoken issues in a marital relationship lead to a superficiality that ruins romance.

Your nightmares are only the tip of the iceberg. They are but a small reflection of the suffering you experienced when you discovered your husband's affair, and the fear you have that the suffering will be repeated. You have no assurance that the affair is over because you don't even know who the other woman is. You are being asked to trust your husband, who has already proven to be untrustworthy. For all you know, he could be working with her, or you could be going to the same church, or she could be
your neighbor. And since he won't discuss the details of how the affair took place, you have no assurance that another affair will not take its place.

Infidelity is not something that can be swept under the rug. While those who have affairs want to forget about it and move on, those who are betrayed must take very specific steps before they can fully recover. In your case, those steps have not been taken, and as a result, your fear persists. I will send you a complimentary copy of my book, "Surviving an Affair," if you send me your address. It will describe these two steps to you and provide you with a roadmap toward full recovery. But the path will require full disclosure of all details.
here


Yes this is the idea that works to a relationship.

lovestations #2580520 01/03/12 09:51 AM
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Reves:

Just caught up on your thread. I, too, bristled at the idea of being tied at the hip to my formerly wayward husband (FWH). Before being married, I was fully independent and successful. I never agreed to "give up my life" when I said my vows.

But ... then my husband had an affair, even though we had a marriage others envied, a great sex life, romance, etc. I was devastated. And, thankfully, I found this website. And I realized that my marriage, my husband and my stepsons are THE MOST IMPORTANT elements of my life.

I had to think long and hard about my future, and I concluded that if my FWH was capable of change through Marriage Builders principles and counseling, it was worth it to stay.

Yes, it's unfortunate that I chose a partner who has boundary issues with women when he is drunk. (Sound familiar?) But he and I are willing to do what it takes to make sure we're as solid as a rock.

And the great thing about Marriage Builders is, is that it's not like you're setting up a jail for your FWH and you're the jailer. The program is designed to create and maintain such a close, loving bond, that cheating isn't even possible.

Hope this helps.
SweetPea




Me: 47
BH: 48, previously married
Married: Nov. 27, 2004
DDay: Nov. 13, 2010
Kids: stepsons DS17 and DS13
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sweetpea2011 #2580712 01/03/12 03:15 PM
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Wow, guys. Thanks so much for the follow up and care. This site has been amazing.

Yes, I believe him that it was a ONS. That was also backed up by her story with her husband. The conversation I overheard was also very clear in that he mentioned "the incident" and her psycho behavior after it. How he thought she needed help. He was unaware I was listening.

I agree that drinking too much is not an excuse and that his behavior needs to be focused on as well.

Someone asked if he had good boundaries when he had his affair. Yes, actually he did. He doesn't flirt or cross lines in any type of communications I've ever witnessed or seen via email or his phone. He has never been sneaky or hidden anything and he'll ask me to get numbers off his phone on numerous occasions and even check his voicemail if he gets a call and is busy.

She got his number from his business card that our friends had on their fridge.

I am listening to what y'all say about monitoring. I still feel reservations knowing me but am ruling nothing out.

He agrees to no more heavy drinking, something else he's never done much of. His buddy had gotten a hold of some moonshine when he traveled to VA and was sharing. Don't think my husband had any idea how strong it was.

Definitely no overnights without each other. We've never done that and even when he's traveled for work I've gone. We use it as bonding time.

I keep waiting and I'm sure that I'm due for the inevitable dip to come but I feel pretty good right now. His actions are a huge reason for that. He's been so proactive and also very distraught by all of this. I can't stress how much this has derailed him.

He scheduled the poly. I don't want it. I still don't. He's the one pushing it, actually. He said he'd want one if it were reversed.

I

Reves #2580737 01/03/12 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Reves
Someone asked if he had good boundaries when he had his affair. Yes, actually he did. He doesn't flirt or cross lines in any type of communications I've ever witnessed or seen via email or his phone. He has never been sneaky or hidden anything and he'll ask me to get numbers off his phone on numerous occasions and even check his voicemail if he gets a call and is busy.

Your husband does not have appropriate boundaries if he just had an affair. He might have boundaries, but if those boundaries don't protect him from having an affair, then he is dangerous. What I mean are boundaries that would PREVENT an affair. Your H did not have appropriate boundaries in place when he had sex with this woman.

He has been sneaky the past 2 months by hiding his affair and concealing his phone.

You are going by his PAST behavior. I am going by WHAT IS, REves. You have to accept the PRESENT REALITY in order to protect yourself and effect change. Saying that he once observed appropriate boundaries does not protect you in the present and the future. The past is gone. And those "boundaries" are what led to an affair.

Something has to change. And that might be that your H stop drinking, agree to not stay overnight without you and to not go out without you. Those would be good boundaries that would protect your marriage in the future.



"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Reves #2580745 01/03/12 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Reves
He scheduled the poly. I don't want it. I still don't. He's the one pushing it, actually. He said he'd want one if it were reversed.

I


that is a very good sign. It will help him move on too. A WW on here was almost suicidal with guilt and having the ability to prove her dedication with a poly helped her enormously.

If I were wayward I would be over the moon that there was a way I could be so transparant. I would not expect to be believed.

Also do not underestimate your own betrayal. You have months of resentment ahead that is still numbed by shock.

You have already gone up and down a bit on the roller coaster - everyne does.

One day a couple months from now you will remmber a weird day or incident from a while back and wonder if that was something to do with an ongoing or second A.

The poly will clean up doubts and give u a clean slate on which to get cracking with recovery.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

MelodyLane #2580749 01/03/12 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Your husband does not have appropriate boundaries if he just had an affair. He might have boundaries, but if those boundaries don't protect him from having an affair, then he is dangerous. What I mean are boundaries that would PREVENT an affair. Your H did not have appropriate boundaries in place when he had sex with this woman.


The way I would characterise it Susie is that his boundaries were thought good by you and thought good by him - but when tested they werent good enough to prevent an affair.

Basically you both went out and got a fence you thought 'good enough' to protect your home but a burglar smashed right through it. Im not saying your h was inviting that or seeking it - just that his boundary fence isnt up to the job of defending an attack.

Dont replace it with the same fence. Put a bigger, stronger fence up.

For example drinking wihtout you, crashing in a house where there were women without you, not reacting with horror when an old slapper tried it on - does not reflect the biggest, strongest boundary that money can buy, kwim?


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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