You have to plan A before you plan B. I don't think you've plan A'ed yet. If you've not done a good plan A, if you've not met his top emotional needs and eliminated LB's such as the DJs present in your OP, then a plan B will just be confirmation that you don't care about him.

You may need to plan A to show him what's in it for him by following this program to the letter.

No one is saying plan A for three years. But you have to do more than just talk about it for it to be effective should you need to move to plan B.

Well, the problem is that she has been doing this too long now. The affair ended 2 years ago so the time for load carrying is over. He either gets on board or she needs to go into Plan B. Plan A time is over.

NB28, does he understand that your leisure time needs to be spent TOGETHER, not apart? You should be each others favorite recreational companion. NOTHING should come before that. So if he has a hobby that he enjoys more than his time with you, the solution is to either do it together or not at all because of the contrast effect.

As far as UA time goes, that needs to be SCHEDULED. And it should focus on the 4 intimate emotional needs, conversation, affection, rec companionship and sexual fulfillment. AWAY from home. ON DATES.

HOW? What is the plan?


There are not boundaries here. Your H is committed to an independent lifestyle. He was JUST NOW planning on being away for a week. He was just telling oyu he wanted to do things by himself in the morning. That ain't boundaries. Leading an independent lifestyle that leaves your marriage wide open for repeat affairs is NOT observing appropriate boundaries.

Yes, but what did "doing this" entail? It certainly didn't entail a MB plan. I think if I look back I'll find where you said that.

So I'm suggesting she may have to do an MB plan, by herself for a while to get him on board. Certainly it takes a good plan A to make a plan B effective.

She has to offer him something good and if he doesn't respond, then make it clear that he will lose that good thing. If he's saying he's not happy, then has she really been offering him something he would define as good?

I know she defines it as good, but what about him?

That's all I'm saying here. Just building on much of what you and others have already said.

My point is that Plan A is over. Now is the time for Plan Recovery and if he doesn't get on board, she needs to plan to separate. She has been in Plan C for 2 years now, which means that she has tried to get him to engage and he has not. Recovery requires BOTH people to get on board.

See EE? The affair ended 3 years ago actually. She has tried - to no avail - to get him on board and he hasn't complied. There is no reason to do Plan A or Plan C. She needs to get his committment NOW to go through the program or she should implement Plan B.

When a wayward spouse refuses to commit to recovery after 3 years, one does not continue to do Plan A or Plan C, they go into Plan B.

ML and Enlightend you both have a good insight in this situation even though slightly different.

Enlightened you are correct in the fact that I see this life as good but that's because I compare it to my previous exsistance and where I have come from, I am an OC from my mothers affair with my dad and that's just the start. My family is a disaster zone of abuse and ignorance. He comes from a stable background with no major issues so I can understand why good to me may seem bad or mediocre to him.

Also agree with the plan A comments, when I discovered the A I did a spontaneous plan A ( didn't know about MB then) for a few weeks then anger took over. I was so verbally abusive to him that he even lost the ability to be intimate with me. It was bad, really really bad. Then year 2post affair things started to calmed down but I was worn out. Didn't care didn't feel like I loved him and embarked on plan ignore and do your own thing. And now I'm paying for those mistakes and rightly so. Therefore I agree that I need to give him a glimpse of who I was and can be again before the A before going to plan B. I would be alot more confident of a positive outcome if I could show him my loving caring side again. If I was in his shoes right now after all that I have done I wouldn't want me either and that's not a pity party comments that's the honest truth. I would feel happier more fair ground if I managed a great plan A before doing plan B. in fact if he didn't want me after a good plan A then I would find it easier to let go of him knowing I did my BEST. Right now I know I haven't done my best.

ML I agree with the boundaries comment the boundaries list we compiled did not include those things the list was focused on cc with other women drinking etc. I did not realist that the boundaries list should include independent behaviour that at face value does not involve people of the opposite sex. My error.

As far as the other things, UA is now scheduled. 22 hours in total. Just working on things to do during UA time. dates not scheduled yet but desperate for a weekend away just need to organise the kids care.

RC time that's the pain for me because I want to join him in his activities I really do but he does not feel like I want to so he doesent ask me. I have been telling him all along how I want to try new things etc he just never realised these could include his activities.

Yes he does understand RC time together and wanting to spend time together rather than independently but we have been in a dark place so so long it's hard to remember the good times and hold on to them long enough to make them happen again. He does not remember us laughing together being silly talking till early hours of the morning. All he remembers is the pain and suffering the last 3 years have brought.

As far as my business goes its something we are doing together, I will be running a shop and he will be with me 80% of the time in between school runs. We also bought some farm land locally where we started planting fruit and veg, he loved doing that , we got the land in November so all we could do was prepare it for winter but we both had something joint to do and it was nice. Now we won't go there till feb to start planting so you see we have things that we both enjoy no problem it's remembering how to enjoy each other that's the messy thing.

You have already shown him that, though. If 3 years of this doesn't do the job, then nothing will. Lovebusters does not mean you roll back and start a NEW Plan A all over again. The purpose of plan A is not endless, lifelong, unreciprocated need meetin', but to demonstrate a willingness to meet his needs if he ends his affair. He already ended the affair. THREE YEARS AGO. So the solution is not to go back to Plan A [after years of Plan C] but to get his committment to recover your marriage by implementing appropriate boundaries and agreeing to the program.

MUTUAL need meeting, not ONE-SIDED need meeting.

So, start there. Don't go back and do Plan A again. Plan A time is over. Done. Give him your conditions and if he doesn't agree, then make plans to separate and go into Plan B.

It sounds like he has agreed to your conditions so that is a great start!

ML I can see what your saying but you also know my angry outburst and feet stomping tendencies. You saw that in my stitch when it got locked. Would u want someone like me? I have made alot of improvement for myself and for the marriage but the horrible me seems to be imbedded in H mind and he can't see past it and all the good work I have done. Plan B without plan A is scary when the lasting impression your leaving on you H is a banshee.

However with that said how can I really execute a good plan A when I havent had my needs met in what feels like a century? So can I just reinforce and keep up my self improvement while he has agreed to the conditions. Should his agreement fade or not go through then go to plan B?

It was a monumental step for him to put our marriage ahead of work commitment for a change and enthusiastically agree to cancel his work trip. Remember this is the guy who carried on working for a year with OW after DDay so he does not put our marriage ahead of work at the worse of times never mind now when he has one foot out the door.

I have been on the false recovery wagon too many times to count so I hope I'm in a better position now to do this properly or not at all.

Q. He has not met my needs because he does not understand them (according to him ) so will reading the HNHN book help him get a better understanding? Should I wait till we read it before expecting him to meet my ENs or should I expect him to start straight away?

Keep in mind, the point of Plan A is to demonstrate a willingness to meet his needs IN THE FUTURE when he commits to marriage/ends affair/whatever condition. You don't have to go into Plan A to eliminate lovebusters. No one does a perfect Plan A. That doesn't mean you go back and do it all over again years later. I told my H he was scumsucking DOG numerous times the first 2 years after his affair. Does that mean we go do Plan A again? Of course not!

The solution is to do the program. My H did not want to do the program for some time so I gave him some motivation. "if you want to stay married to me, you get on board, because otherwise I am not interested." He got on board! We went through a real recovery.

And if your H does not commit, then plan on going into Plan B and in the 2 weeks it takes to get him out, do your best to avoid lovebusters and meet his needs so you leave a good taste in his mouth.

So stop with the Plan A and the Plan C, and start focusing on TWO-SIDED giving. Meet each others needs and do the program.


Print out the top 4 intimate EN's and focus on those. Tell him how to best meet your need for conversation and affection. Ask him how you can best his need for rec companionship and sexual fulfillment.

He can read up on those today and you can discuss it.

He DOES understand conversation and affection. You just need to explain him how BEST to meet that need. And when he misses the mark, tell him.

ok got it.

Thanks ML

''

Good girl!

Had rough night sleep, thought about everything you said ML. Got really low and spend most the night crying into my pillow as H slept next to me. I can't immagine plan B will be worse than the way I felt last night.

My family's future and my lack of security plagues my every waking thought.

I have decided that crippling along like this will definitely put me in the dark place so I HAVE to do what is right, fair and stops the damage being done.

Here is my plan agreed by H.

Tonight I will raise the bar, tonight I will compose my list of requirements for me to be able to continue trying to work on the marriage. I will give this list to H and if he does not agree with any items on the list then I WILL go to plan B.

Things that are not part of the MB list of requirements are:

1. H needs to go on anti depressants, This can be controversial because at face value it appears to be about him more than me but I can't work with him when he is surrounded by a thick vail of misery. I have rarely made a decent decision while I have been depressed so I can't see him making one. And I am 100% sure he is depressed due to numerous things including his constraint sleepiness and lack of interest in anything ( kids, work, leisure literally he does not care about anything right now and occasional self harm thoughts) I have had depression I know the signs and right now he has all the signs and does not disagree with me when I ask him if he might be depressed. I need him to go on meds and choose to want to help himself.

2. I want MC. I want a face to face MC. I found a list of local MCs and will vet them before booking any appointments. I want an MC who has heard of and applies Dr Hs principals.

3. I want a weekend away together to just get out of the rut. We both need a brake desperately and we have some Christmas money left to be able to get away for a couple of days to get off to a good starting point rather than the black hole we are both in.

This is what I can come up with right away a part from the MB MUST list like UA POJA and following all of the marriage builders concepts.

Any opinions on the above 3 items will be welcome. I will post the full list tonight.

When you interview potential counselors, ask them:
1. Are they familiar with Marriage Builders and Dr. Harley's concepts and use these concepts in their practice?
2. Do they believe that a betrayed spouse deserves to know complete details about an affair?
3. Do they believe that sacrifice is dangerous to a marriage?

If the answers are 'yes' the counselor could be very helpful to you. If they've never heard of MB or Dr. Harley, strike them off the list and move on to the next one.

Here's Dr. Harley's article on how to find a good counselor:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7100_counselor.html

I am in the UK there is a local list of MC and they all state that I can ask Q before booking them, the likely hood of a UK MC having heard of dr H is low but I will try my best. Will consult with mb at all times

Read the link that markos posted to you. That will be very helpful.

I don't know how many counselors there have heard of Marriage Builders, but I have seen a lot of UK posters here and heard of a lot of UK callers on Dr. Harley's radio show. There was one just a couple of months ago, and I've listened to some of the old archives (2006-2007) and heard a few. So the information is at least out there.

You might consider calling Dr. Harley yourself on the radio show. I think the times line up in a way that makes it a fairly convenient evening call for a UK caller.

markos Really useful link found it very easy to understand and I like the way Dr H brakes the sections down into understandable parts. I feel a lot more confident having seen that link than before. Thanks for that.


As far as the radio show go I have it as an app on my I pad and listen to it whenever I get the chance. I thought about what to ask how to put the situation forward without writing an essay, I considered sending in my first post on this thread but things are developing by the minute.

Will update in a bit