I'd find a way to reverse things or educate her through the fog in some way:

"Honey, if we D you're going to have to hanlde those things without any help or input on my end. I'll happily help you as my W if you act like my W, give up the affair, commit to recovery, and come home. Otherwise, you're on your own since you want to continue your affair."

Some might say that's too much to say. I'd be happy to get it off my chest.

She's already said that she would be coming back for the wrong reasons which were the kids and finances. She wouldn't be coming back for the marriage. Although the kids are a good reason, not having a loving marriage would make it difficult to live together. My most important EN is affection and if she's there and not meeting that need, things won't work out. I'm still hoping she will come around before the divorce is final.

What she said about coming back is fog talk.
The waywardness would need to end. The fog dissapate for her to be able to clearly work on the marriage. And, make no mistake.....Dr. H shows how to rebuild a marriage using Care, Protection, Time (spent with each other) to build romantic love from the ashes of infidelity.
You can not control when or if she ends her waywardness (fiddle sticks) but don't attempt to try to educate her right now. Just be wonderful you vs sucky you.Show her you are a good guy and are willing to meet her ENs should she ever decide to try monogamy with you again. (btw, if you ever get to that point, she will probably meet yours.) Just know that there is a way to have passion back in a logical (!) way.
Your WW doesn't have a clue about that. You barely do but you have to know that in the end, with or without that woman you love....you will survive and thrive and be proud you went through the awful and herculean process to offer her a chance to win YOU back.
Also, meanwhile, protect your finances (legal sep or D) and the children's view of the world as best as you can given the situation.

In Plan A, how do you all feel about texting the WS. Mine doesn't usually contact me during the mornings, but I'll usually say good morning and find reasons to text her. I'm wondering if I should just stop, but I think that would put more distance between us. At the same time, I feel like I should try to find ways to keep busy so I don't have the urge to always initiate contact. We see each other almost every night for dinner. I'd like to get other members thoughts on how much contact I should have.

I think you should do it if she doesn't say stop.
Text her throughout the day so that she gets used to it, looks forward to it and

will miss it

if you ever DO need to go to plan B.

Make some texts enchanting though. Complimentary to her good points (she still has some despite the lousy choices she is foisting on the family). Maybe even poetry or lyrics from songs that are beautiful (not necessarily romantic).

YK?

I think in Plan A you do connect with things like just checking to make sure you are okay, is there anything you need, can I help with anything, was just missing you, thought it would be nice to have supper as a family, would you like to go for a walk, talk........
I did that GJM, I did it with a routine and then on a few occassions I missed a day or two and I found when I didn't connect he did himself, they miss all the emotional needs you can give them on a regular bases. She should see you moving on and enjoying your life separate from her, exercise, friends, being a good dad....I think we are all different, I just used my gut feeling If it felt right to me I did it......
My husband says now if I hadn't done the reaching out back then he may not have made the effort from his end......strength, integrity and all in a loving peaceful way, smile at her, look right into her eyes when you speak, little innocent touches, hugs, smells, make her have reasons to miss having contact with you.......
I agree with reading, in the meantime protect yourself financially and your children's interest.........
I think the kids are a good reason for her to come back, I think she uses that as her loophole........I think over time she will let that facade go and realize there is more to her reason, in the meantime you give her reason to process the changes and let her see there are plently of reasons you could make her happy.......
I thought my husband was gone too, It took 8 months for him to see things for what they really were.........they lose their sense for a long time but they do come back to reality
keeping my fingers crossed for you

Thanks....without the experiences that have been shared with me, I probably would have given up by now. At times I feel like I want to, but you guys inspire me.

GJM,

From what I experienced and from what I've learned since my D-Day, it's pretty uncommon for a WW to immediately jump right back into the M once they've had an A. It happens (you can find some examples on MB), but not very often, as most women who step outside the marriage have checked out a long time before. I would guess that's probably one of the reasons Dr H recommends a 6 month (or longer if you can stand it) plan A. That and men can typically take plan A longer than most women can. Cause in most situations, it takes WW's longer to come back to the marriage hence a longer plan A.

In my sitch, my W was sure she was going to marry OM once our youngest was done with H.S., which was two years down the road. She just thought she would ride out the marriage until he graduated. Just like her Mom did with her step dad.

Once I discovered the A, I worked with Steve Harley for probably 7 months, and at his recommendation, I exposed to OMW and no one else at first. It put a crink in the A, but didn't end it. Not until I exposed to my kids 7 months later did the A end (my youngest son shredded his mother). And even though I told my W if she broke NC one time and I found out about it, I was done, I'm pretty sure there was some contact with OM thru work email/IM's for a period of time after that (he works in a different state for the same company).

I decided to stop snooping and to Plan A my wife until our son was done with H.S. If it worked, great, but if not, I was at the point where I didn't really care.

It took probably 3 months before I saw her begin to change. 3 more months after, we had SF for the first time in over a year. And then there was a big pull back from my W. Took another couple months before I saw her radically changing.

Things are great between us now. And I'm very glad I kept it up as long as I did. I know that everyone can't keep it up that long, but I'm glad I did....and so is my W. She still thanks me to this day for not giving up.

But it took a lot of effort and swallowing chit to get us where we are today.

Guess what I'm saying is, if you've got it in you, plan A a while longer and see if she begins to show signs of coming back to the M.

H4U

Today my W came by so I could take her to get decals on her windshield so she can get on base. We had a nice talk for about an hour and a half. For this conversation I saw the old W. She told me she made an appoinment to see a psychologist. She said she wanted to talk about her issues from childhood, about her mom and our marriage. She told me that she cries at work and at home and she wants to figure everything out. She never dealt with the trauma that happened to her as a child and has no memories of a lot of events as a child. I'm hoping this is a good sign.

We touched on our marriage a bit. These were her problems with me:

I was controlling because I argued until she gave up. I didn't help around the house or understand how hard it was for her to manage the household. I questioned why it took so long for her to return home from the store or anywhere she went. I got upset if she wanted to watch a movie with a friend because I would never get the opportunity to watch the movie now. She didn't get any alone time. She says she can watch paint dry and not get bored. She didn't want to participate in the bills because she was too tired from her day and now she doesn't know how to be responsible to pay bills. She says I didn't listen when she would complain. When I offered to help her she refused because if I really wanted to help, I would just do it instead of offering. I would get on the kids about putting their stuff away, but I would leave my stuff laying around. She says that I didn't appreciate how hard she worked around the house.

None of these things justify what she did and she realizes that. The problem is, how can I convince her that she can have all of those things if she comes back to the marriage? I have learned so much through this site and want to be able to show her that she could have a happy marriage. I have my conditions of course due to the affair, but what's more important? Making her feel like our home is a safe place to be in order to work on the marriage? or assume that there is an active affair and make her feel like she has to ask for forgiveness and commit to a recovery program? I believe she is too scared that things will go back to the way they were when she felt unhappy. I want to print out POJA, HNHR, LB to show her what we could have, but I don't know what to do.

What you do is
everytime she mentions an issue having to do with the marriage
you say
"I want to be team mates in a marriage too."
"I want that too."
"That would be nice. I'm game."
etc.

She doesn't say what she wants though. If she did, it would be much easier to say those things. I need to show action which is hard to do when not given many opportunities

That's quite a laundry list of grievances against you, G. Did you ask her what things she appreciated about you? I'm sure she could list a number of things before she chose to crawl into an affair.

It sounds like she's still trying to justify her actions. Keep going with Plan A. She will eventually have to acknowledge that she owns her poor choices and that you're not the ogre she's trying to make you out to be.

Tell you what, you can probably ignore a good bit of her list. I would usually ignore any list of fog drivel, but there may be some hidden points in there that you can work on:

History re-write, trying to justify what she has done.

Can you get in contact with the coaching center?

I can get in contact with the coaching center, but without her, how would it help me?

Also, I am guilty of some of those things, but over time I tried to improve, especially the last two and a half years. I felt things were going well. I'm just glad she made her appointment. Maybe she can open her eyes a little to see where she's gone wrong.

They don't coach/counsel you together in any case as far as I know, so you'd be fine.

I'd have to get a loan to pay for the sessions and thanks to her, our money isn't so great.

It kills me that my W wants to work so hard on getting the kids on the right path when the right path for them is under one roof. She wants to work together to get them to listen and not have attitudes, but she doesn't realize that if she spent that same energy working on the marriage, that part of our life will fall into place. I told her that it's hard for me to help her because I never wanted our situation in the first place. All she could say was that she knows.

I don't think you should do this. Don't go into debt to pay for the coaching. First, because I think it's too soon. Second, because debt can create its own problems in a marriage that is already rocked by adultery.

Good post, North. It's true, there may be a nugget of truth in that stone-walling, fog-filled list of grievances. She took the nugget and turned it into a mountain to justify her affair. But I think it's a smart idea to keep this list of grievances, G. When she begins to warm to the topic of reconciling, refer to it. Tell her "I know you said that I didn't help around the house enough. I understand that better now and I think we should look at making a chore list." (or whatever you think you should do to tackle her objection). or "You say I argued until you gave up - I see how that could upset you. I've been reading some books by a great author who has a program that has really opened my eyes to the way I communicate with you and the kids. It's really helped me see how I can improve that."

IOW, paint a picture of how it can be if she comes home, turning her complaints into manageable goals. Sell her on the idea that coming home will be a good experience.