OK...after a nice night with H and a good night's sleep...none of the above seems that important. Strange, huh?

But...I wonder if it should.

Maybe I'm just thinking too much!
LOL

SDIT,

You have a son who was repulsed by his father's actions and is having some trouble reconciling with him!

I had a daughter who, on d-night, sided with her mother's unfortunate choices, and ultimately was the proximate cause of my...removal.

Wanna trade problems? (Didn't think so! )

Yours has an obvious solution, but you cannot effectuate it. FWH is going to have to have a man-to-man with him. It will not be pleasant, which is why it has not yet happened. Net/net, the initiating speech will be:

Son, I bleeped up. I was wrong, I hurt your mother, and I hurt our family.
I'm sorry to all of you, but it's now in the past. What do you want to say to me?

That last question is going to be brutal to hear answered. Oh, well, sux to have been wayward.....

NG is right. And remember this is going to be a process, not a one time act. Before he does this however, I would sit with hubby and ask him your question from the night before...

"honey, I was thinking last night about ____. It seems that you feel ________. Am I wrong about this? I want to understand better."

CV

Boy, I feel for you, NG! NO - I wouldn't want to trade! All 3 of my kids were very supportive of me. My 2 sons especially held H's feet to the fire in the crucial moments! DD was away at college. My youngest sent a text to H that shocked us all, quite frankly, and made no bones about where he stood on the cheating issue. (This was after I'd had H move out.) H had been texting the kids, wanting to talk to them. S16 (the 15) texted him back and said, "Congratulations, Dad. While mom has been doing her best to save your marriage you've been out ----ing some sl--. In my mind, you have two choices: stop your affair, commit to our family and do what's right or stay the he-- out of my life!"

That's not word for word, but close to it. S17 was just as strong, if not more so, with his dad.

All the while, H just knew they would "understand."

But, yes... H has apologized to the kids for what happened and said he was wrong. I know he would like once to be enough. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way.

I spoke with S16 yesterday at lunch. He is not the talkative type. I think he's over the other night and would like for it to just go away. (He's a lot like his dad!)

I encouraged him to talk to us about things that bother him - that he doesn't have to keep it inside.

H was good to tell S16 on Wed. night that he had the right to say what he said - and if that's how he truly felt, they needed to talk.

Yeah - it really does suck to be a wayward, I'd imagine! Sucks to be a BS too, but just in a different way.

That's a good way to put it, CV. I just wasn't sure if what, if any, conversation I should have with H about it since the whole "what to say about triggers" discussion upthread.

You're right: it's all a process! It'd be nice if everything could just be said once and feelings just magically neutralized, but life just doesn't happen that way, does it?!

In a way, I think BW's have it harder than us BH's. I think men in general tend to (not be less emotional, but) internalize. Men in general tend to not want to deal with emotions other than our own. I dunno if that makes sense or not. We have to learn how to do this and frankly, if we were raised in "manly" homes, it is quite difficult.

A for instance: My house growing up was male dominated (to say the least). Dad ruled the roost and ruled with an iron hand. Weakness was for girls and sailors. A few weeks ago, we were sitting around the kitchen table for bible study at mom and dad's and dad said "You know what? I hate all this feministic crap about telling people you love them! I never once told my kids I loved them when they were growing up and they never questioned it... Did you?"

Everyone at the study went silent and looked at me. I said "yeah dad, we all questioned it at one time or another, we were just afraid to be weak in front of you."

Anyway, I wonder if this is what your H may be experiencing in some way... A need to feel or appear stronger maybe?

CV

Yeah, sorry Son and saying that if he has any questions as to why he was so foolish, please ask, is probably the safest road to take. Yes, it might take time and years for questions to develop, and H should be allways available for them.

We can be really caught up in our mistakes, and forget we are human. H was human when he strayed, and humble when he admitted it and changed his behavior.

"Do as I say and not as I do" does come into play in life sometimes, and the pain this caused you all should be enough to warn off the same thinking and behavior in the kids. Don't be afraid to show the scars, and attempt to warn your kids of the dangers.

You know, to some degree that's it: the need to hold on to some pride and maybe manliness. I mean, on one hand, H has never had a problem with being affectionate and loving towards the kids - not even the boys - not even when they got older. I love you's and hugs have always flowed freely in our household. BUT...on the other hand, part of H's issues come because H didn't really have a true dad. His step-dad wasn't much of one, that's for sure. So, he's never had a dad to lean on through thick and thin or to gain real identity through. My dad loves him like his own son, but we haven't lived near my parents in 20 years.

But - just as you mentioned - H really doesn't talk much about feelings (like most men) unless he is made to do so.

Truly, the biggest thing with H and the way he was raised is that it is quite normal to just cut people off if things get hard or inconvenient. His own mother has never even laid eyes on our 16 year old! Never really even inquires about our kids. Heck, H was a product of an affair on his mother's part himself. Doesn't know his biological father because his mom cheated on the man he called dad when he was young - who is listed on his birth certificate. She later left him for his step-father, who cheated on her and subsequently left.

Pure craziness.

Very true!

I have been very open with the kids with my own mistakes throughout all this.

H has even shown the boys HNHN and told them it had a lot of great information that he wished he would've known years ago!

I worry at times: boys with dads who cheat are more likely to cheat themselves later - despite what they suffered because of it. It's one of those phenomenons just like children of parents that are divorced being more likely to divorce themselves. You'd think they be more careful to avoid the pitfalls of this crap! BUT...that's not the way it goes.

Education is the only thing I know to put in place to stop the cycle!

Well that didn't happen with me.

My Dads parents disowned my Dad when he strayed, and my Mom was salt of the earth, never slept with any other man till this day.

I had plenty of chances, was rugged enough and good looking enough, but just couldn't cheat, even after cheated upon at 19 and having an OC born to my wife. Funny, she was the one who could not handle it or seem to love him.

Even when I thought it would feel good to cheat, to get even, to fix something broken in me, I just could not do it.

Its an individuals choices that make them who they are, and that is the lesson we want to teach our young boys, that to avoid hurting others is honorable at all times. There is never an excuse.

I would bet that the love and concern your H is showing them will mean more to them than any affair activity. Love is like that

Good for you, CP! I know some people feel it's a free pass if they've had it done to them. And you're absolutely right: there never is an excuse. My boys have heard it enough from me, that's for sure. Hopefully, the are getting the message loud and clear from H as well.

The good news is, I truly believe they know they are loved, by both of us. They've learned we are fallible, but hopefully one day they can be inspired to know you CAN learn from your mistakes and do better.

Very well-articulated. This really hits home.

IAin'tReady...I'm glad you got something productive out of that post.

It can be hard to sort out all this stuff, for sure. I'm so thankful for this site and being able to work it out here!

Since I'm working things out, perhaps I can pick some brains.

I don't have a long time to explain the situation in detail as I am headed off to class. Then, I'm getting ready for our anniversary trip. We leave tomorrow night and will be gone through Sunday evening. I start classes today, so, busy day or so for me!

Now that I'm thinking on it, maybe not sharing details is best in this scenario; maybe the details are irrelevant to the overall strategy here. Just a thought...

SO, how do you handle it when you're spouse commits a big lovebuster, not done on purpose, and spouse KNOWS ...and feels bad...but can't do anything to undo it? This lovebuster cost you something personal - something you can't replace materially but more importantly, sentimentally?

I feel like a big baby. I need to get over this before our trip - it has kind of put a damper on it for me.

H has apologized and I just need to forgive and try not to make him feel bad about it even though I feel bad myself. I've done my best to not point fingers or dwell on it. I can't help but be sad though.

Why is it every time things are going well SOMETHING has to sneak in to try and ruin it?!

Not sure if this is a help or not since I'm not sure what the LB was... But let me try...

You might say "hon, I'm not finger pointing or blaming, just want you to know that I'm still hurting over X and wanted you to know. I'm not sure what I need right now... Maybe reassurance.. Can you help? I want to go into the trip with a clear head"

CV

Thanks, CV. Thankfully the LB has nothing to do with the affair. Of course, it's not really something he can give me reassurance for. Long story short: he has lost some very important jewelry pieces of mine in a box and they are gone for good. It is somewhat of an accident. The LB comes in because if he would have done things the way they were supposed to be done, they would not be gone. He claims he will buy me new stuff but honestly - we don't need to be spending money on that. Besides, several of these pieces were one of a kind. They weren't huge money - but enough!

The key here is that while I am allowed to be upset about it, I need to make sure he knows I love him and while it IS his fault, I am not finger pointing or looking to blame or hold over his head - or whatever.

But yes - the fact that if he would have done things correctly bothers me in the withdrawal of love units.

This sticks out to me, Sunny D.

What do you mean by this? What actually happened?

You see, when I look at this phrase, it looks to me like a...




DJ!

For illustration;

When we were first married, NGB wouldn't "allow" me to do laundry, because I did not do it the way that she thought was the "right way" to do it. She had levels of separation for whites, colors, towels, jeans, socks... whatever, that just baffled me. Because I didn't do it "her way," she figured it was best that I just don't touch laundry. Hmph. Works great until she gets mad that... I don't do laundry! O_o

The key problem there was a DJ (both ways, really). Over the years, though, she relaxed on all that separation, and now I'm glad to throw a load in whenever I see a full hamper.



So, let me ask again; what is more upsetting? The fact that the jewelry was lost, or the fact that he did things in a way you didn't like?

If he had "done things the way they were supposed to be done" and the jewelry was lost, would you be AS upset? More? Less?


Just some food for thought...

I have read Dr Harley's advice on the private forum that the one who did the "letting down" must put it right.

Now, I know that this will be hard since your H can't replace the specific jewellery, and because buying new stuff will cost money that you are reluctant to spend, so in short, I don't know HOW he can do this but my understanding is that he MUST do what he can (without committing further LBs, of course!)

I suppose that this where negotiating and brainstorming is useful. He needs to find out from you what would be acceptable and what wouldn't - like paying a lot for more jewellery. Would engraving something existing work? Would he be able to find a similar piece from the same place as the originals and have that engraved - but only one piece? (Obviously, not if it's vintage.)

Then HE needs to sort it out. Dr Harley was very clear in the case I read about - which I think was about having failed to arrange a night out for UA time - that the LB-ing spouse had to make ALL the rearrangements.

So, if you start from that principle (that your H must make up for his error), and also remember that YOU must not dwell on his mistake, because that would be an LB from you - you can find a way for H to repair his thoughtlessness.

(From what you say it WAS a mistake - but one that arose from his failure to stick to an agreement, so he is responsible for the mistake.)

Hold....

I should've explained better because the way I put it DID sound like a DJ. It wasn't. I learned a long time ago to not expect H to do things "my" way. I'm actually very good about that.

This takes a long time to explain. And, to be frank, it makes me all upset to go through the whole story again. So...the short version is that H knows he did it the wrong way and was just not organized and didn't clarify things as he was supposed to. We were in the process of reorganizing and such... had a plan of action. It wasn't that we were doing things "my way" at all!

Now, did he do this purposefully? Of course not! And I know he feels bad. He admitted it is his fault. He's done all he can... but, you know: the part of me that wants my stuff back is still aggravated, purposeful or not. And...the devil on my right shoulder says things like, "why can't he have just done things as we agreed...and my stuff wouldn't be gone!"

However...we ALL make mistakes. We all cut corners when we shouldn't thinking it's going to be fine. Then, we get bit in the hiney and realize there's a reason you do things by the letter of the law sometimes.

This is GREAT advice, Sugar, thank you!

I can see where this is the best plan of action.

I will admit, part of the whole LBing part of it is that devil I just mentioned to HHH on my right shoulder. The one who is whispering in my ear, "Sure...first you put me through hell, cheat on me, then you ditch half my jewelry... what else do you want to strip away from me?!"

I am fighting that guy!

I think our 4 days away (tomorrow night through Sun. night) will probably help A LOT with this.