This would be a very reasonable EP given her history. Please follow through!

You have every reason to be concerned with her continuous anger about doing the right things to help you and this marriage heal. My wife would not have given me the time of day if I'd behaved like she has. We would have been divorced! Your wife seems to lack gratitude in your willingness to give her another chance.

What exactly does this PASS mean?

Did she answer YES to all the deception she has heaped on you...and that was the truth?

Or did she answer NO to all the deception and that was the truth?

Passing a poly would mean nothing when you discover that she has had you cuckold for years.

Seriously...there needs to be test for character.


committed

I don't think it is a lack of character, it is an addiction. She is addicted to cheating as evidenced by her serial cheating. Not only will she have to be watched, but she will have to set up extraordinary precautions to avoid temptation in the future.

But I don't see that happening here.

And I don't think she has even admitted yet that she is addicted to cheating and is actively pursuing it, has she, Senn? Because this is much more than just men hitting on her. She is seeking this out and probably hitting on them.

One of the first steps in overcoming an addiction is admitting you have the problem and being honest about it. Has that happened, Senn?

Let me put this another way. I am an addict and my H doesn't have to keep an eye on me because we have arranged my life in a way that I am not around temptations. There is no booze in my house, I don't hang out in bars. He doesn't need to be watching all the time because I am not around booze. That is why I suggested that SHE set up her life in a way that would avoid all temptation, ie: working with women and running errands WITH her husband.

Well, She hasn't so much as said she has an addiction. She has admitted to having a problem, and has said she needs to fix the problem. Of course she did the normal wayward thing, started looking up disorders to push the blame on. I don't think it is a disorder, it is probably more of an addiction to the feeling she gets when she is admired by other men. She has shown clear signs of that throughout the marriage.

Committed,

Don't quite understand your question. I believe your showing a bit of sarcasm there and think I understand your point. I did not type in her answers as I expect anyone reading it to understand how she responded or otherwise I would have either new info for you all or I'd be heading to plan D in a hurry.

PapaBear,
Thanks for the support.

How does she rope the men in, though? She needs to describe to you in detail how it happens. I don't believe men around her are just walking up out of the blue and "admiring" your wife. I think she does something to INCENT their interest. Does she dress provacatively? How does she set the stage to get the men to have sex with her? What does she say to them? Does she flirt with them?

You need to know how she pursues her addiction so you can get a better idea of how to change the conditions.

\

Can you be more specific?

That last part is a red flag to me. It sounds like a strategy a lot of us have used: admit that we have a character problem that is interfering with the success of our marriage. This wins us points with our spouse -- we admitted the truth! Yay!

And then --

we're working on it.

"Working."

"Fixing."

Perpetually.

Alone, usually.

I've heard Dr. Harley often identify disorders/addictions, etc. that are a problem for marriage and say that someone needs professional help, and he always specifies that the spouse needs to be involved in whatever treatment they receive. Examples are alcoholism, drug addiction, and anger management.

In this case I don't know that professional help is needed, but she definitely shouldn't be able to claim that she "needs to fix" the problem without giving a plan that she is going to follow to fix it, a measurable and monitorable plan.

Mel,
She dresses conservatively, like a 30 something mom would.

She does flirt, has always done that and is well aware of this problem. I accepted it over the years as just part of her fun-loving personality. I don't honestly think she even realizes it, it just comes natural to her. It has come to the surface in light of this affair and is a big factor in the EP talks. She has to work on dealing with people without coming off as flirting. I told her she needs to completely stop joking around with any men particularly at work as just teasing and joking can be misunderstood as flirting. She agreed to this, and is working on it.

"working on"

"fixing"

"going to"

"EP talks"

None of which is a plan as Markos pointed out.

Flirting is a form of COURTING. I joke with men at work and on this forum but they don't get the wrong impression from me.

What does she say to these men exactly to get them to have affairs with her? How does she pursue them? If she is serious, she needs to paint you a picture of what she is doing.

]

She has to stop flirting with men.

She does flirt, has always done that and is well aware of this problem. I accepted it over the years as just part of her fun-loving personality. I don't honestly think she even realizes it, it just comes natural to her.

Hell's bells, dude, I'm gonna insist we put YOU on a poly!

Let me translate the above for you:

My easily seduced wife has convinced me that her continually
tossing her lure into the man-pool that she swims in is an
essential part of her makeup and therefore, I'll apologize
for, and excuse, her actions forever!

You've got two choices here dude (No, a more rational BH would have two choices; you'll weasel several others into the conversation, no doubt!) -

1 - If it really is part of her essence and cannot be changed, cut your losses and get the HELL out of your marriage. Remember, you just confirmed she can't change, and without that change, you'll be back here until I get old(er) and gray(er).

2 - If instead of #1, her flirting is (as WE all know) a series of conscious decisions to keep trolling to find her next AP, then YOU had better man up and address this with her in draconian terms. (No working with men, etc, etc)

Which is it to be?

senn, I hope you will listen to the above.

Your WW is the female equivalent of my STBXWH but I think maybe worse, seeing as she has had seven affairs.

He even did the thing where he hit on an old HS friend who was in town visiting me for birthday, right in my own home when I was upstairs with my DS. [when I found out, this caused me to break Plan B and unleash he!! on him...not my proudest moment]

Anyway, Dr Harley told me STBXWH could be considered an addict and has no self control around women and needs to have ALL opportunity for an affair taken away. I really do believe he would tell you the same thing about your WW.

Please do not fall for the disorder thing. That's a ploy to distract you from requiring her to give up her secret second life and independent behavior.

I agree with Susie.

Lots of WSs hide behind the ZOMG I HAVE A DIZORDER!!! I AM A VICTUM!!! shield.

"She does flirt"

Senn,

I think when situations I see are so seriously fatalistic I tend to get humorous. So...I guess at your expense and hopefully to highlight what challenge you have, I would like to present this:

From: an episode from "Two and A-Half Men" I am not sure if you are familiar with this show, probably some women on here would detest it but when my wife was living her she really liked it.....main characters: Charlie, a stud who attempts to bed the nearest woman, and his brother Alan, divorced and very timid, but very hungery for sex. When the mother fixes Alan up with a date, this date turns out to be an attractive but obnoxious alcoholic ready to dance on the table in the restaurant and flaunt her favors despite she is on a date with Alan. Alan, even tho he had hoped for consumation with his date, realizes he's in trouble, so he calls his brother - the stud - Charlie, and Charllie advises:

"Pin a warning tag on her back in consideration of the next man in line, and then run like hell!!"

I honestly think this is where you and your wife are at this point. I realize this is harsh, I do care, but trying to shake you to reality.

Tom

Little update here. I want you all to know how things are going. Still pushing through the knee deep crap.

We/I are/am doing better, getting my humor back a bit.

OM has been gone from work for 2 weeks, and I haven't had the pleasure of speaking with him since!!

WW did poly as you know, passed the important Q's and potentially fails on 2 of the less important ones. I have not explored them too much as I don't believe she is lying about them, and if she is, the answers wouldn't make a difference in the direction I want to take.

WW has NC letter prepared, I have yet to send it... Dragging my feet.

Have discussed post-nup and she has agreed to do one, despite a little resistance. With this, I am including a clause that will mandate a poly every five years, this too was met with resistance and finally agreement. I will follow through with this to protect myself, I can assure you!

Mel, You will be very happy with me.

I contacted my ex-employer today and with a huge swallow of my pride, asked for my old position back. I told him I would come back under the condition I work with WW, on her shift. He said he would love to have me back, but has to get approval from the head cheese. I don't know how that will turn out as there has been a policy in place for years on "no rehires". I left on very good terms so I feel pretty good about it- Crossing my fingers. I sat down and figured out my what my losses in pay will be, I was shocked at how insignificant it is, taking into account fuel expenses and wear and tear on the car. If I turned my drive time into over time, I will actually come out ahead!

WW is coming around, I am seeing a glimmer of hope in her. She has stopped the angry outbursts. Is clearly starting to be more transparent, and is much more willing to discuss things like the affair, the EPs, and has encouraged me to try to get back into her workplace. Until recently she was difficult to deal with and would avoid discussing the A etc.

Unfortunately WWs have to be won around and a stand has to be taken for the marriage. You can see the difference between her reaction now to your making the job situation work and her reaction to you when you were still talking to the OM and not standing up for the marriage.

Your foot dragging on the NC letter is going to endanger this progress. Not sending it looks uncaring and it is like sending the message that you are ok with contact resuming. Get it done.

Thanks Indie, I am on it, just don't like how it is written. When in the wrong mood, I am a perfectionist, and the letter will never be right. If I'm tired or moody that goes out the window, so I am waiting for the right mood to where I don't care, and will send it then. Sounds crazy, but I will send it shortly, maybe tomorrow. OK tomorrow

The "believe" is exactly what you are reading into. I can't imagine her lying about it, because I gave her a "free" pass, and have given her every opportunity to come clean. I have to get comfortable with that being all, but continue to have doubts. The intercourse Qs were my biggest doubts prior to the poly, and she had questionable results on exactly that. The only thing that would make any sense as to why she would lie about it, is she had sex way more times than I could have imagined. The problem with that theory is those Qs wouldn't have come back inconclusive, they would have been out and out failures if that were the case. So of course my imagination probably has the best of me, and I need to move on.

I am happy overall with the results of the poly, as I did question if there were more As, as I said before, that would have been a deal breaker.

ok, this does not make me hopeful. A WW who is being forgiven for affair #20 should be showing some real remorse and working hard to EARN your forgiveness. Angry outbursts and resentment about discussing the affair does not show remorse. This doesn't look like anything of the sort to me, Sem.

And what does "starting to be" more transparent mean? She either is or she isn't. Starting to be does not mean she is.

What is she doing to EARN your forgiveness?

Frankly, I see nothing here that gives me hope. The success or failure of your marriage is ENTIRELY CONTINGENT upon her willingness to make a radical 180 degree change. And she is having angry outbursts? FOR REAL? And is "starting to be" transparent after a freaking MONTH on this forum?

What in the world do you see here that is worth saving? I see absolutely nothing except a future with a profoundly undesirable promiscuous woman. What makes you think she has or will make the necessary RADICAL changes?

And I do believe she is lying about not having intercourse with the OM. The only thing I can't figure out is WHY she told that lie.

Is she able to get pregnant?