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ML...I get that. You had direct knowledge and followed your path. In this case based on what is written, we don't know if the knowledge shared is accurate. I only cautioned temperance. And, he initially was contemplating nuclear exposure.
SQ...my next thread explains in detail after the one you note why I cautioned patience. As for evidence, there were four pages of conversation prior to my note that included counsel of possible legal action if he was wrong. Regardless, one of his initial responses was nuclear exposure of an event that was based on...what. My point was and continues to be patience and my secondary point is, is this a MB concept to expose if you are not in the marriage. I have been blasted for giving advice outside of the MB concepts and yet I can't find this one. So maybe you can help me with that. Thanks
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I completely undstand your point and agree but, the rules of the road for MB speak with clarity about espousing and giving guidance based on those principles. If you give personal advice based on your morals or principles, where is the line. I would think that because this information is not part of the MB concepts it is out of bounds.
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My point was and continues to be patience and my secondary point is, is this a MB concept to expose if you are not in the marriage. I have been blasted for giving advice outside of the MB concepts and yet I can't find this one. So maybe you can help me with that. Dr. Harley, in principle, does advocate exposure of affairs and addresses it to the people in the marriage.[his audience] He doesnt' ever say "don't expose if it is not your marriage." But then, that is outside of his focus so why would he say that? In principle, people CAN give non-MB advice here when it doesn't conflict with Dr. Harley's advice. When it does, it goes against the TOS. In this instance, there is nothing against the TOS the prevents folks from discussing exposure of an affair outside their own marriages.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Forgive me, this is a little off point and for my education but I am confused by your premise. I was under the impression that the information on the threads was a direct reflection of the MB principles which are between spouses as I understand it. The position you describe is that as long as there is some direct tangible evidence to expose regardless of this person being outside the marriage. I may have missed this . Is this Dr.Harley's/Marriage Builders position that there is a moral obligation to expose an affair regardless of the fact exposure comes from outside the spouses. If that is the case, I would appreciate it if you could direct me to the link or radio broadcast so I can follow up. Thanks. Your feigned innocence of complete MB knowledge is noted. A thorough reading of this thread should make clear that we use Dr. Harley's concepts to build strong marriages. That's his whole goal and we endorse it. However, we do not come to the table as blank robotic slates. We bring our own experiences and personalities, which help to form our moral code. We are responding according to our moral code, which, IMO, more closely aligns to Dr. H's belief in honesty than another person's belief in keeping secrets might. The impression I came away with regarding your posts is that the OP has no business in 'inserting' himself into someone else's marriage. Even if that were true, I believe the marriage has already been 'inserted into' by a third party who is having sex with one of the spouses. My posts to you have been made to dispute your assertion.
D-Day 2-10-2009
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Thank you Marriage Builders!
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I completely undstand your point and agree but, the rules of the road for MB speak with clarity about espousing and giving guidance based on those principles. If you give personal advice based on your morals or principles, where is the line. I would think that because this information is not part of the MB concepts it is out of bounds. Apparently you didn't read the TOS very carefully - but if you have concerns, you should report the posts to the moderators. Do you have a LINK to the EXACT TOS you believe is being violated? : MB Policy on Other Marriage Books & Programs
This announcement is to clarify our policy about the discussion of other marriage books and programs on our forum. Such discussion is acceptable, except on the threads of those seeking help for their marriages. Offering alternative methods to those in need promises to confuse and discourage them, often leading to unnecessary debates. Posters attempting to help should not be put in the position of having to debate basic principles. That is not helpful to anyone, most especially the poster in need.
This is a large board and not every single post is read by the moderating volunteers. If the moderators are not alerted to a specific post mentioning non-mb material it could likely remain. This is not an indication that other times the same material won't be edited nor is it any indication that some posters can say certain things and others can't. Further, sometimes non-MB material and/or links MAY remain on the boards because the specific moderator(s) that read it didn't feel it was a distraction, or they may have even felt it was relevant and helpful. This is within Moderator discretion. Again, MB is about saving and restoring love in as many marriages as possible utilizing the MB principles and processes.
If you want to have such discussions, please feel free to start up a thread in the Other Topics forum. We ask that you do not post links out of respect for our forum host.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I would look at this from a different perspective that Dr. Harley's focus is in fact about marriage preservation and enhancement and this falls in that purview. Not to beat a dead horse, but you could make this argument for almost any of the MB concepts. I would have thought if this issue was significant because this seems to be a regular occurrence in the universe of marriage dynamic, that Dr. Harley would be specific otherwise it seems to be to each their own regarding opinions and I thought we wanted to avoid that type of inconsistency. Thanks.
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I would look at this from a different perspective that Dr. Harley's focus is in fact about marriage preservation and enhancement and this falls in that purview. How does this issue have anything to do with "marriage preservation and enhancement?" Please note that Krazy is not married, btw. Not to beat a dead horse, but you could make this argument for almost any of the MB concepts. But that doesn't address my point so I don't know what you mean. You need to be more specific. I would have thought if this issue was significant because this seems to be a regular occurrence in the universe of marriage dynamic, that Dr. Harley would be specific otherwise it seems to be to each their own regarding opinions and I thought we wanted to avoid that type of inconsistency. Thanks. "We?" Who is "we?" Do you run the board?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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ML...to address your points one by one...1) if there is in fact an issue within the marriage that Krazy inserts himself into, that could potentially be extremely damaging. Particularly if his information is inaccurate. Again, I only cautioned for temperance and clarity 2) this is your opinion wrapped in MB concepts, not Dr. Harley's. I only wanted to differentiate between the two 3) Gonna pass on this one
As to response on policy question, I interpreted where it said other marriage programs to broadly. My mistake.
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ML...to address your points one by one...1) if there is in fact an issue within the marriage that Krazy inserts himself into, that could potentially be extremely damaging. Particularly if his information is inaccurate. Again, I only cautioned for temperance and clarity Don't disagree here. 2) this is your opinion wrapped in MB concepts, not Dr. Harley's. WHAT is my "opinion wrapped up in MB concepts?" I don't know what you are talking about. Can you be specific? 3) Gonna pass on this one
As to response on policy question, I interpreted where it said other marriage programs to broadly. My mistake. Gotcha..
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I would look at this from a different perspective that Dr. Harley's focus is in fact about marriage preservation and enhancement and this falls in that purview. Dr. Harley's concepts focus on the specific marriage and the behaviors of the two spouses within it. I have not read any of his writings that would suggest that he has broadened his focus to include directing the behaviors of friends and acquaintances of the spouses.
D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!
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Maritalblisss...correct...I didn't think he should and neither do some others on the thread...but folks need to follow their own conscience. What if he exposes and is wrong? I'll always exercise on the side of caution. The exposure bell incorrectly hit never gets unsung.
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Maritalblisss...exactly...that's why Krazy should not get directly involved.
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Maritalblisss...exactly...that's why Krazy should not get directly involved. huh? Are you saying that Krazy should not do anything unless it is suggested by Dr Harley?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Maritalblisss...exactly...that's why Krazy should not get directly involved. But that's not what I said. Read my post again. I am explaining to you why your attempt to combine the issue of personal responsibility of a human with MB concepts is a distraction to the actual topic. I think Krazy feels he has compelling evidence of a crime against a human being. I think he should disclose this evidence to the victim and let them make their own decision as to what they should do with it. And saying that - I'm sorry, but circular arguments become tedious for me. Maybe I have ADHD.  I will not be continuing this debate, as it appears that you desire to debate for the sake of debate. That sort of thing is of no value to me.
D-Day 2-10-2009
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Thank you Marriage Builders!
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ML...it is your opinion that even though something is not specifically written on MB that you broaden the concept, (ie: Chinese tea). Regarding the exposure it was your opinion based on the MB concept of exposure to expose infidelity even though a spouse may not be doing the exposing.
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ML...I am saying he should not do anything without irrefutable proof and direct knowledge, (it seems you had both from your prior note when you exposed someone so no issue on that from me) and that there is not an MB concept that directs those outside the marriage to expose.
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Maritalblisss...my desire is that no one takes precipitous action without direct knowledge and involvement and even then tread carefully. Neither of which seemed apparent in these notes. If you feel that is a distraction we have very different points of view on being responsible. Questioning my motives and integrity because we have differing points of view is counter productive.
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ML...it is your opinion that even though something is not specifically written on MB that you broaden the concept, (ie: Chinese tea). Regarding the exposure it was your opinion based on the MB concept of exposure to expose infidelity even though a spouse may not be doing the exposing. No, it is reality. It is a matter of reality that there are things written outside of Marriage Builders that you can do. For example, I just did my work out. I did not need or require a MB concept to do this. In the same vein, my opinion about exposure in other marriages has nothing to do with MB, even though exposure - in GENERAL - is advocated by Dr Harley.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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This is my advice, having been in Krazy's "friend" position once.
Give the betrayed wife what evidence he has (considering this was a three year relationship with engagement, surely there is something?).
Allow the friend to cut off the friendship if that is her reaction to the exposure because yes, she'll be upset.
IMO, it is what a true friend does. A true friend does not stand idle and watch their friend do such a horrible thing to another person, by continuing the affair. This girl is continuing it, and using Krazy as a dumping pot because nobody else wants to listen anymore (*"nobody seems to care....").
Again, that is my own perspective as being this FRIEND at once upon a time and who suffered the wrath of exposure from my *own* friend, but I have 10 years of reflection to see it was the right thing to do.
Whether anyone else believes it is right or wrong, that is for them to decide, but I know it was right now.
When your friend is a drug addict, you don't drive them to the street corner for their fix. So you don't allow her to dump on you about her addiction either. Sometimes being a friend means tossing her into a cold harsh reality.
Last edited by alis; 01/21/12 03:18 PM.
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Give the betrayed wife what evidence he has (considering this was a three year relationship with engagement, surely there is something?). Excellent advice, alis! I agree completely. It harms nothing if he gives the wife his evidence and allows her to investigate herself. I wouldnt' take it beyond the wife, though.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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