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Lighting #2589597 01/24/12 04:09 PM
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Not yet, I agreed not to tell them.

Okay.
Retract your commitment to silence.
Tell the frickin' world!

After she suffers that hit to her fantasy-self, you'll at least know where you stand in your marriage.

- If she's (alternatively) enraged, humiliated, distraught, and depressed, you might have a chance of recovering your union.
- If she shrugs it off, or mentions that she was "out of love" with you before playing Sapphic games, save yourself a whole lot of pain, effort, expense, and anguish. File.

Lighting #2589600 01/24/12 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Lighting
[

Not yet, I agreed not to tell them.

Lighting, this is where I would begin. Your best weapon in saving your marriage is to expose the affair. I would invite you to read the link in my profile and start developing a strategy. Then come back here and let us look over your plan.

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but I don't want fan the flames right now.

You will have to fan the flames if you are going to save your marriage. Not fanning the flames only serves to ENABLE the affair. The goal here is to save your marriage, not to avoid her anger at any cost. Your marriage can survive her temporary anger, it can't survive an ongoing affair. \

How long have you been married?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


MelodyLane #2589630 01/24/12 05:31 PM
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NeverGuessed and MelodyLane,

I'm sure you have heard this before but I find some of the exposure suggestions somewhat unpalatable. I am not saying I wouldn't be unable to carry them out, it just presents me with some tough choices.

I fear some of her (our) friends wouldn't believe me, although I guess if they challenged my WS she would be unable to deny it.

I fear that her(our) friends will think me vindictive, nasty and angry. I am not a big fan of hanging out my dirty laundry in public and am quite private. I'd like to try and keep my head held fairly high through this, if anything for my own self esteem.

Am I able to claim that they are still actually having an affair? Does playing online scrabble constitute an affair? The close friends/family I have told would find it hard to classify it as an actual affair. They would say that she cheated on me on holiday and kept up inappropriate contact on-line. Am I kidding myself here? Was it an affair, to me it's an infidelity, I just saw it that she cheated on me. Same thing? Apologies if these are dumb questions, I guess you realise that things aren't always crystal clear for the BS. Tell me if I need to wake up and smell the coffee.

My close friends/family have advised me against exposing this infidelity and I don't think they would understand or respect me if I did.

The OW lives on the other side of the world, so the only way the relationship could continue would be on-line and I feel reasonably confident I could monitor that to see if it restarts. For me trust is such a big issue that if we don't have trust we have nothing. I feel that if contact continued I would find it easy to then end our relationship. I guess I was saying that about 5 days ago though :-)

This girl has 600 friends/acquaintances on Facebook, so it would take me approx 10hrs to message them all. More importantly I feel really, really uncomfortable messaging that many strangers, some who barely know her (she can't seriously have that many close friends). I could contact her fianc�e but again I feel really uncomfortable with that. Maybe it's a cultural thing, we are different on this side of the pond.

I would be a lot happier contacting just the mutual friends of me and the OW and feel that would be just as effective.

I guess I am afraid that my WS would never forgive me for it. But if she can't do that maybe that tells me what I need to know?

Lighting #2589639 01/24/12 05:49 PM
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Great questions lightning. It's also great that you're being so honest about your feelings, fears, hesitations, concerns.

I don't have the answers, but I'm sure someone will be along soon to very clearly address the concerns you've raised. Hold on to your hat, it's likely to be a doozy smile


Just wanted to add - yes - playing scrabble online, chatting, etc can still be an affair as it can still be one person getting their emotional needs met by someone who is not their spouse which leads to bad, bad things.

Last edited by Youdeservebetter; 01/24/12 05:51 PM.
Lighting #2589640 01/24/12 05:54 PM
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Lighting,

Sorry you find yourself here but you are in a good place under the circumstances.

I don't post much but feel the need to tell you to stop trying to predict what people will say WHEN you expose. Start with the fiance. Wouldn't you like to know what's going on in your life? What if the situation were reversed? You have a moral obligation to let him know. Besides, it lends an extra set of eyes to help with accountability on the other side of the world if he/she decides to stick around and marry someone who doesn't value marriage.

Just to clarify, playing online games is a continuation of the affair and gives them a "hit" off the affair pipe and keeps this going, right under your nose. Most online games also allow them to chat and send messages undetected unless you know what to look for.

I will defer the rest of the questions to the vets to handle. I will agree tho, the friends have to go in order for you to get back on track (after you tell them what went on).

Just my $.02


me: bw, 50
he: wh, 51

m: 1990
sep: 2007

dd: 18
ds: 14
dd: 11

multiple affairs: two with past gf's, one email dalliance.
Too many d-days to count. First one 2/06. After all this time, it's still my fault.

I've had enough. Divorce in progress.
Lighting #2589668 01/24/12 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Lighting
I fear that her(our) friends will think me vindictive, nasty and angry. I am not a big fan of hanging out my dirty laundry in public and am quite private. I'd like to try and keep my head held fairly high through this, if anything for my own self esteem.

Your self esteem is more affected by her affair, though. There is nothing worse for self esteem than an affair. And the point is not to be vindictive or nasty. You wouldn't be presenting it in such a way. If you read the exposure suggestions, you are not nasty or vindictive, you are simply asking for support in your marriage.

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Am I able to claim that they are still actually having an affair? Does playing online scrabble constitute an affair? The close friends/family I have told would find it hard to classify it as an actual affair.

Yes, it is an affair. As long as she is still in touch with the OW, the affair is still on. Your wife is the alcoholic who changes the name of her drinks to "business drinks" and hopes to fool others into thinking she is not really drinking. An affair is an affair. And if it is meaningless, then why won't she end contact? Can you imagine a sane person giving up her marriage over a "friend?"

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My close friends/family have advised me against exposing this infidelity and I don't think they would understand or respect me if I did.

Thats ok. We don't expect your friends and family to know how to save a marriage. Dr Harley DOES though. You are not doing this to seek the approval of your friends, but to save your marriage. The approval of your friends will not save your marriage. If your friends have a better way, I would ask them for their credentials and their track record. Here is what Dr Harley, clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Builders, says about exposure:

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"In my experience with thousands of couples who struggle with the fallout of infidelity, exposure has been the single most important first step toward recovery. It not only helps end the affair, but it also provides support to the betrayed spouse, giving him or her stamina to hold out for ultimate recovery."

Dr Harley calls betrayed spouses "enablers" on this radio clip when they help the WS hide their secret: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=2815

By keeping it a secret, you aide and abet her affair.

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This girl has 600 friends/acquaintances on Facebook, so it would take me approx 10hrs to message them all. More importantly I feel really, really uncomfortable messaging that many strangers, some who barely know her (she can't seriously have that many close friends). I could contact her fianc�e but again I feel really uncomfortable with that. Maybe it's a cultural thing, we are different on this side of the pond.

I would attempt a more strategic exposure. Such as targeting family members and close married friends. I don't know what side of the pond you mean, but we have saved several marriages from the UK, Italy, France, and Australia using exposure. Just because you "feel" it would not be effective does not mean it isn't. As far as feeling "uncomfortable," keep in mind the goal here is not to make you feel "comfortable" with exposure [an impossible task] but to save your marriage.

If you will only do things that are "comfortable" then it is doubtful you will make it. Perhaps you feel more "comfortable" with divorce?

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I would be a lot happier contacting just the mutual friends of me and the OW and feel that would be just as effective.

Feelings are not truth, though. A watered down exposure is a DISASTER. It is not enough to kill the affair and only enough to piss off the WW enough to come after the BS with rage. I would target her parents, your parents, the OW's parents, close family and friends. Don't water it down. That is like bringing a pea shooter to a gun fighter. You only get your [censored] shot off.

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I guess I am afraid that my WS would never forgive me for it. But if she can't do that maybe that tells me what I need to know?

That won't matter if you are divorced. The greater risk to your marriage is the affair, not her "forgiveness." All WS' are furious about exposure, but when it kills the affair and the fog rolls off, they are grateful for it.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Lighting #2589697 01/24/12 09:11 PM
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Your first post contained this:

Any help/advice would be greatly appreciated

Going back and re-reading the entire note reveals that you never exactly stated what you wanted help/advice with!

We, possibly foolishly, made the assumption that you wanted help/advice ending the illicit, adulterous, affair (yes, same-sex, and yes, momentarily quiescent) in which you wife has been involved.

We also assumed that as a by-product of this immediate task, you would be interested in creating a marital union that would be highly resistent (if not invulnerable) to future acts of betrayal by your spouse.

So now you provide this:

I find some of the exposure suggestions somewhat unpalatable...it just presents me with some tough choices...I fear that her(our) friends will think me vindictive, nasty and angry. I am not a big fan of hanging out my dirty laundry in public and am quite private. I'd like to try and keep my head held fairly high through this, if anything for my own self esteem.

So, my friend, what is it to be? A band-aid slapped over a gangrenous sore, or the rigorous operation to clean and heal the infection?

NeverGuessed #2589714 01/24/12 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
So, my friend, what is it to be? A band-aid slapped over a gangrenous sore, or the rigorous operation to clean and heal the infection?

Coke out my nose, thank you NG.

Lighting #2589715 01/24/12 10:59 PM
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Sorry you are here Lighting.

We (the typical MB forum member) are systematic/pragmatic and Harley plan oriented.

Please click on the carrot stick link you can find in my sig line.

Plan A is not a marriage recovery plan. (that comes later)
Plan A is a war plan against the affair. (not against your wife)
You cannot build a better marriage while the affair is ongoing.

Click my link and read that thread top down.

Welcome to Marriage Builders

Pepperband #2589754 01/25/12 07:32 AM
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Coke out my nose, thank you NG.

See, Pep, here in Noo Yawk we know to put the coke into our nose! (Just kidding!)

MelodyLane #2589781 01/25/12 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Lighting
I fear that her(our) friends will think me vindictive, nasty and angry. I am not a big fan of hanging out my dirty laundry in public and am quite private. I'd like to try and keep my head held fairly high through this, if anything for my own self esteem.

Your self esteem is more affected by her affair, though.
I'm not sure this is the case. In terms of an evaluation or appraisal of my own worth then in some ways I feel better and less guilty for the distance I had allowed to develop in our relationship.

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
There is nothing worse for self esteem than an affair. And the point is not to be vindictive or nasty. You wouldn't be presenting it in such a way. If you read the exposure suggestions, you are not nasty or vindictive, you are simply asking for support in your marriage.

I hear what you are saying but despite asking for support, the way in which I do it would come across as vindictive/nasty. I know this since I have already asked the question.

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
By keeping it a secret, you aide and abet her affair.
Yes I can see this point of view.

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Perhaps you feel more "comfortable" with divorce?

Maybe this is true, I am considering all options at the moment.

Lighting #2589782 01/25/12 09:26 AM
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What is your goal, lighting? What is it you wish to accomplish?


D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!

Lighting #2589783 01/25/12 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Lighting
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
There is nothing worse for self esteem than an affair. And the point is not to be vindictive or nasty. You wouldn't be presenting it in such a way. If you read the exposure suggestions, you are not nasty or vindictive, you are simply asking for support in your marriage.

I hear what you are saying but despite asking for support, the way in which I do it would come across as vindictive/nasty. I know this since I have already asked the question.

Lightning,

Exposure is not vindictive. It is honest and loving. You cannot control what people think about you when you say or do something and really, it shouldn't affect your decision. Chances are, some or many of the people you end up contacting will know about the affair. They already have an opinion of you, and if they do, it probably isn't good from what your W is telling them.

The truth is, if you want your M back, you'll do whatever it takes. Even if it appears unpleasant.


Celtic Voyager
Married 22+ years
3 young adult children


"A story of me"
Lighting #2589786 01/25/12 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Lighting
[

I hear what you are saying but despite asking for support, the way in which I do it would come across as vindictive/nasty. I know this since I have already asked the question.

That's ok. Some might view it as "vindictive and nasty," but that is their own personal issue, not yours. Your issue is saving your marriage. Some will help you, others won't. You find out quickly who your friends are.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


maritalbliss #2589790 01/25/12 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by maritalbliss
What is your goal, lighting? What is it you wish to accomplish?

Good question?

I am scared of maintaining the relationship only to find out later that it was flawed (esp. if there are kids by then) I don't want too look back and say you ruined the life of innocent children but fooling yourself that you could make the relationship work.

I am also scared of breaking off the relationship and regretting it for the rest of my life. I don't want to look back and say "what were you thinking, you had enough to save it".

I am happy to take steps to ensure the end of the affair, but one thing I am struggling to understand is to know whether or not I want to continue the relationship or not. Based on what has happened. Should this be black and white?

NeverGuessed #2589791 01/25/12 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
Your first post contained this:

Any help/advice would be greatly appreciated

Going back and re-reading the entire note reveals that you never exactly stated what you wanted help/advice with!
The three paragraphs following the statement
Quote
I am now wrestling with a couple of issues:
detail my concerns and include some specific questions.

Perhaps I don't truly know what to ask? Should it be things like: Have I been reasonable? Based on my values, will I ever be able to trust her again? Is her desire for children more important than our marriage? For me these are all valid questions along with those that are already given and answered in detail on the MB website.

Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
We, possibly foolishly, made the assumption that you wanted help/advice ending the illicit, adulterous, affair (yes, same-sex, and yes, momentarily quiescent) in which you wife has been involved.

We also assumed that as a by-product of this immediate task, you would be interested in creating a marital union that would be highly resistent (if not invulnerable) to future acts of betrayal by your spouse.
Not if it was an unhappy/unfulfilled one.

Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
So now you provide this:

I find some of the exposure suggestions somewhat unpalatable...it just presents me with some tough choices...I fear that her(our) friends will think me vindictive, nasty and angry. I am not a big fan of hanging out my dirty laundry in public and am quite private. I'd like to try and keep my head held fairly high through this, if anything for my own self esteem.

So, my friend, what is it to be? A band-aid slapped over a gangrenous sore, or the rigorous operation to clean and heal the infection?
I am sorry that you are finding it difficult to empathise with my distress, confusion and personal values.

Lighting #2589793 01/25/12 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Lighting
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
What is your goal, lighting? What is it you wish to accomplish?

Good question?

I am scared of maintaining the relationship only to find out later that it was flawed (esp. if there are kids by then) I don't want too look back and say you ruined the life of innocent children but fooling yourself that you could make the relationship work.

I am also scared of breaking off the relationship and regretting it for the rest of my life. I don't want to look back and say "what were you thinking, you had enough to save it".

I am happy to take steps to ensure the end of the affair, but one thing I am struggling to understand is to know whether or not I want to continue the relationship or not. Based on what has happened. Should this be black and white?

It's never black and white as far as what a BS feels. What is black and white is that if exposure never happens, she will continue her affair. All relationships are flawed. We are flawed people. The question is, do you want a relationship with this woman and work to remove the flaw that leaves the relationship open for another A? THIS can be fixed. You can remove the flawed conditions that lead to the affair. There are no promises that the next (a new) relationship will be any better at this point.

Fear is the mother of indecision.


Celtic Voyager
Married 22+ years
3 young adult children


"A story of me"
Lighting #2589795 01/25/12 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Lighting
We also assumed that as a by-product of this immediate task, you would be interested in creating a marital union that would be highly resistent (if not invulnerable) to future acts of betrayal by your spouse.
Not if it was an unhappy/unfulfilled one.
[/quote]

Our program creates a happy fulfilled marriage. That is our goal. But the first step is to kill the affair. It is impossible to create a happy, fulfilled marriage unless the affair is killed.

We KNOW your marriage is sick. Otherwise she wouldn't be having an affair. We kill the affair and then give you very specific steps to transform your marriage.

Here is what Harley says about trusting again:

Originally Posted by Dr Harley
"One topic is loss of trust. How can a spouse ever trust an unfaithful partner again? My answer is that the spouse should never have been trusted in the first place. I shouldn't be trusted by my wife, and I shouldn't trust her. The fact is that we are all wired for infidelity, and under certain conditions, we'll all do it. The way to protect your marriage from something that has been common to man (and women) for thousands of years is to recognize the threat, and do something to prevent it from happening. Basing a marriage on the Policy of Radical Honesty and the Policy of Joint Agreement goes a long way toward preventing an affair. Being each other's favorite leisure-time companions, and not being away from each other overnight are also important safety measures. Meeting each other's most important emotional needs, avoiding Love Busters and building an integrated lifestyle, free of secret second lives, are all ways to affair-proof your marriage. With these measures in place, we end up trusting our spouses because an affair becomes almost impossible to achieve." here


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Lighting #2589798 01/25/12 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Lighting
Originally Posted by maritalbliss
What is your goal, lighting? What is it you wish to accomplish?

Good question?

I am scared of maintaining the relationship only to find out later that it was flawed (esp. if there are kids by then) I don't want too look back and say you ruined the life of innocent children but fooling yourself that you could make the relationship work.

That makes perfect sense. You can't make the relationship work by yourself, but you won't know this unless and until you kill the affair. Your marriage CAN make it if your wife ends her affair and commits to this program. If she does those things, you should probably wait 5 years before you have kids to make sure your marriage is fully recovered. children create enormous tension in even good marriages, so you want to be well into recovery before you do that.

But you will KNOW if your marriage is recovered or not if you stick with us. This is not about playing a wild card or hoping for the best.

Quote
I am also scared of breaking off the relationship and regretting it for the rest of my life. I don't want to look back and say "what were you thinking, you had enough to save it".

My suggestion would be to do everything in your power to save it for now and keep your options open for the future. If you successfully kill the affair, the next steps will be to gain her committment to a program of recovery. If she does not commit, then there is nothing to save. But if she commits there is a very strong chance that you will achieve the desired goal, which is a better marriage than before.

And please re-read that last sentence. We are not going to help you get back what you HAD. Because what you had led to an affair. We will help you achieve something much better. And that would include very specific steps to AFFAIR PROOF your marriage so this doesn't happen again. You won't be relying on "trust" anymore, you will be relying on BOUNDARIES.

The huge wound your wife has inflicted on you would be replaced with a passionate marriage. Your pain would fade in time provided you both take the necessary steps.

Quote
I am happy to take steps to ensure the end of the affair, but one thing I am struggling to understand is to know whether or not I want to continue the relationship or not. Based on what has happened. Should this be black and white?

And you may choose to end it all in the end. But for now, you can take the steps to save it and keep both options open. We can help you do everything to save it and support you in the end if you decide not to save it. That is your prerogative entirely.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


MelodyLane #2589802 01/25/12 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
you should probably wait 5 years before you have kids to make sure your marriage is fully recovered.

I know for certain that this would be too long for her, we have discussed it.

One close friend made a point that I thought was profound. He said something along the lines of your marriage is more important than any decision to have a kids or not. If she can't agree to being married regardless of whether you are willing/able to have kids then your marriage isn't strong enough.

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