Hello, I'm hoping you can point me toward some resources on this site or offer me some advice for my situation. I apologize in advance for the lengthy post.

I'm a 43 year old man with two children (a 14 year old son and an 11 year old daughter) from a previous marriage, which I left in 2004 after enduring years of emotional abuse from my high-conflict ex. In the aftermath of this marriage I began counseling so that I could learn to have healthier relationships.

I met my current wife (now age 35) in 2006 and we married in 2008. She had never been married and had no kids. She had also gone through therapy, to deal with childhood sexual abuse (she was molested by her step-dad) and a series of unhealthy relationships.

One of the things we had in common was a desire to have children. We became pregnant several months after we married, but our first son was stillborn in July 2009 at 22 weeks. We went through several months of couples counseling to deal with our grief and eventually conceived again in early 2010. We had a healthy baby boy in October of that year.

Prior to our pregnancy loss our needs for sexual intimacy seemed very compatible. Afterward it was about 2 1/2 months before we were intimate again. At first our thought was to ease back into this part of our relationship, but we decided early on to begin to try to conceive again as soon as she was given the okay by her doctor. It took us about six months to become pregnant this time, and during these months sex became very much about trying to conceive. She would agree to have sex during the fertile time of her cycle, but then not again until the following month.

When we did conceive again, it was a high anxiety pregnancy due to our previous loss. During our counseling after the loss, I had raised the issue of her withdrawing physically and emotionally from me. Once we had conceived again, the withdrawal became even more pronounced. During the first six months of the second pregnancy, we were intimate maybe half a dozen times. I finally gave up on trying to re-establish emotional or physical intimacy at that time.

The time after our son was born was typically difficult with fatigue and caring for an infant. As the months went by, though, she continued to show no interest in intimacy. She said that she had zero desire, and she was unwilling to do anything else to meet my need for sexual intimacy. Finally last August she agreed that we should try to work on it. Because of our ages we did not want to wait too long to try to have another child, especially considering that it had taken six months to conceive the second time. So in August we had sex twice, a few days apart. Naturally, we became pregnant immediately.

We began marriage counseling again about four months ago, when it became clear that we weren't making progress on our issues on our own. Our previous therapist having retired, we started seeing a different person, who had us complete the emotional needs questionaire and used that as part of our early sessions. One of the ways in which it was eye-opening for me is that I realized I was doing things that I thought were meeting her emotional needs that really weren't high priority items for her, while not focusing on the things that were. Our relationship has definitely improved in many ways, but we have made no progress on sexual intimacy.

So this is where I'm at right now. We have not been intimate in nearly six months, and only twice in the past 18 months. Even those two times, she was not really "there"; as I described it in a counseling session, I felt like I was having sex with her, but she was not having sex with me. I asked (again, during a session) if she had agreed to have sex with me those two times only because she wanted to get pregnant again. She denies this, but I have to wonder.

She spent a good part of last year blaming our lack of intimacy on me. If only I would do this, that or the other thing, then she would have the desire for intimacy. I did everything she asked me to do, and nothing made a difference. I've never been the stereotypical slob of a guy who doesn't lift a finger around the house, either. I provide for her so that she can stay home and care for our son, plus I'm paying for her to work on her masters degree part time. When I'm home, I'm caring for our son so that she can get a break, work on homework or hobbies etc. I do 90% of the cooking, do my own laundry, hired a cleaning service, do all of the outdoor maintenance and am generally a tidy person.

Were there needs of hers that I wasn't meeting? Sure. We went over those in our early counseling sessions, and I immediately took concrete steps to address those areas. In fact, it was due to my efforts that she finally realized that it wasn't just me. I was doing everything she asked me to do to meet her needs, and yet her issues with intimacy remained.

There have been improvements on her part, too. Affection would not normally be a high priority need of mine, but along with lack of sexual intimacy over the past two years there was almost a complete lack of affection too, and generally only when I initiated. She has made an effort in this area.

But sexual intimacy remains a stumbling block. I initiated a conversation with her last night by saying that I just wanted to express what I've been feeling this week. Which is, depressed about where things are, being somewhat obsessive about it (can you tell?) and feeling hopeless to do anything to improve the situation. I did not ask for anything. She began to cry and said, "well I guess I'll just have to do it then, because I don't want someone else to do it for you." I don't want it that way. I don't want her to feel coerced into having sex because she's afraid I'll cheat or leave if she doesn't. I want to feel wanted and desired.

I finally said, "I don't know what to do." I've never been unfaithful in a relationship. I don't want to have an affair. I don't want a divorce. I want my wife to *want* to be intimate with me. At the same time, I don't know how long I can continue like this, and I'd be lying if I said that the thought of having an affair hasn't crossed my mind.

She has everything she said she wants, but she says she's not happy. She is still withdrawn a fair amount of the time; last night she spent a good deal of time on the computer or her phone. I asked why, and she said it's just something mindless to do that requires less energy and focus than reading or watching a show.

From what we've talked about in our therapy sessions and our one on one conversations, the thought of having intercourse or even doing anything else to meet my need for sexual intimacy fills her with anxiety. She says that she has no idea where this anxiety is coming from.

What can I do?

The problem is that she has fallen out of love and no longer feels an emotional attachment. You probably spend very little, if any, time together each week meeting the 4 intimate emotional needs. When those needs are not met on a regular and consistent basis, the woman no longer feels emotionally attached. Women need 2 things in order to desire sex with a man: an emotional attachment and the prospect of enjoyment.

Now, how do you get back to the place where she feels desire? You start spending 20+ hours of undivided attention time meeting these top 4 needs: conversation, affection, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment. The most effective way to do this is to GO OUT on dates. Harley recommends 4 dates of 4 hours each, filling in the rest of the time at home.

This time should be SCHEDULED out, listing the dates, planned activities, times, etc. If it is not scheduled, it is much easier to put off.

When you do this for a few weeks, she will find that she feels much closer to you and will be much more willing to have sex with you.

The problem is that you have been focusing on needs that do nothing to restore or maintain romantic love. Domestic support, financial support do not create the romantic feelings necessary to create sexual desire.

But if you are out together, meeting the intimate emotional needs, she will feel emotionally attached to you again. Usually in a few weeks.

I would order these 3 books and follow the lessons in them:

His Needs, Her Needs for Parents
Lovebusters
Five Steps to Romantic Love workbook

When you get the workbook, tear out the undivided attention worksheet and make copies. Use that sheet to schedule your UA time.

I missed this part. So she is 6 months pregnant?

Just past the 23 week mark, yes. Due date is May 23rd.

I didn't realize there was a "His Needs, Her Needs for Parents". I picked up the "His Needs, Her Needs" book and read it about six weeks ago. I asked my wife to read it too, and she has read maybe half of it so far. She says she finds it "scary" because of the way Dr. Harley talks frankly about spouses having affairs or marriages ending in divorce when needs are not met.

I'll look up those books, thanks.

What you said about my meeting her needs for domestic support, etc. not really helping squares with what I realized from our counseling sessions. I've been trying to focus instead on the needs that she listed as highest priority. Affection was not a top 5 need for her, but recreational companionship is, and I've been working on improving on that.

Has she seen a qualified doctor and been screened for postnatal depression?

There was a point in time where I felt similar to her - it wasn't that I wasn't in love but that I was suffering quite badly from postnatal depression. It isn't uncommon for a woman, particularly when the baby is still born (and subsequently, there is a tunnel vision on conceiving a living child, a desperate urge to replace the feeling of loss with another child, which can help distract the pain but does not address the original emotions of the loss).

She didn't list affection because she is emotionally DETACHED from you. If she were emotionally attached to you, she would have listed it as a top need. People who are emotionally detached list non intimate emotional needs as their top needs. But that changes when they fall in love again. So you need to focus on affection and the other 3 intimate emotional needs.

Once she feels closer to you, she will feel like having sex with you, provided that you make it enjoyable. And she needs to tell you how to make it enjoyable since it is not a top need for HER. That is how you keep her interested.

Did you know that this program does not work without scheduled UA time? When Harley was in active practice he would not even counsel a couple who could not commit 15 hours per week to his program. That is because they are wasting his time and theirs.


I hope you find it just as "scary" and are maintaining appropriate boundaries around women. Now is the time to be extra diligent about protecting your boundaries. When you know you are vulnerable, you should be taking EXTRA precautions. An affair can RUIN your life.

You can start scheduling UA time today and I would strongly suggest you discuss this with your wife today and get a plan of action going. Hire babysitters and get out and about!

In the meantime, please read this article and show it to your wife: The question of the ages: How can a husband receive the sex he needs in marriage?

She has had issues with depression in the past, and she does say in hindsight that she probably did have some postpartum depression after the birth of our second son. Her doctor has tried a number of antidepressants for her previously, and unfortunately she doesn't tolerate them well. They make her feel wired and unable to sleep.

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How many hours ALONE are you spending each week meeting each others needs?

Welcome to marriage builders! I agree with ML (when dont i? lol) Get those books ... especially "his needs her needs for parents". YOu and your wife have prioritized your lives in such a way that what you do for each other is not restoring love or maintaining it. COunselling is only wasting your money as they rehash the past and drudge up old hurts. You probably have felt that when you come away from the "counselling" you feel worse than when you went in .. especially your wife. Marriage builders is built on the premise that "FEELINGS FOLLOW ACTIONS".

Have you filled out the emotional needs questionair? The recreational enjoyment inventory? The lovebusters questionair?

I would print out 2 copies of the LBQ and the ENQ and one copy of the REI and sit down with your wife and go over them and exchange them .. and possibly also the personal history questionair.

Also .. I would read the books WITH your wife .. out loud. A chapter a night .. and then discuss the questions together at the end of each chapter (makes GREAT UA TIME). MY wife found that by me reading the book outloud to her deposited many love units and she would periodicly interupt me so we could discuss whatever was on the page and not just the questions at the end of the chapter.

Keep reading .. and asking .. and posting.

MNG

Respectfully, you are making an unwarranted assumption. She has never been a touchy-feely person, and is not particularly comfortable with physical affection even with her family. Dr. Harley states in "His Needs, Her Needs" that the Top 5 needs for men and for women are generalities, and that individuals can have Top 5s that differ from those profiles. In fact, neither my wife nor I have Top 5 needs that exactly match the "typical" ones for our genders.

Yes. With a 15 month old and a baby on the way it is daunting to think about trying to find that amount of UA time. I've been making an effort to pry her away from her phone and get her to engage in conversation or activities in the evenings after the little guy is in bed. Getting out for dates is a little harder because she's been reluctant to let anyone babysit for him other than her mom. We did recently have one of my nieces watch him for a few hours and it went well, so we can plan for regular date nights.

I completely agree, and I'm being very mindful of this.

Thanks for the link; I'm going to go read the article now.

Maybe 8 or 9 in the past week. We need to do better there.

I just wanted to mention that even though you dont get out as much as you would like .. there is plenty of other options to be together when you are home meeting the need for UA time. Reading together outloud being one of them .. card games ... cooking .. baking ... etc .. check out the recreational enjoyment inventory for some other options if getting out is difficult. MY wife and I have a similar issue with being able to "get out" but we still manage to find things to enjoy at home together without TV or kids or friends.

MNG

I am not making an assumption. I am telling you something that Dr Harley states and writes about in his book Effective Marriage Counseling, that when a spouse is emotionally detached they tend to focus on NON-intimate emotional needs because they don't WANT intimate emotional needs met. I am also not a touchy feely person, but there are many ways to meet the need of affection that is not touchy feely.

However, he explains that the top 4 INTIMATE emotional needs must be met during UA time in order to create romantic love. For example, your detached wife might list domestic support as her top EN. But people don't fall in love over DS. When you are dating, you don't fall in love because you did the dishes for her. It is something that can be done APART and you can't fall in love meeting that need. This why it is important that you focus on the 4 intimate emotional needs during UA time. THAT is how people fall in love.


That is great! And that is where I would start. But I wouldn't do it gradually, or a little at a time, or you are going to be very disappointed when you see no results and think it doesn't work. If you get 8 hours together or you sit on the couch after the baby is asleep, at a time when you are most exhausted, you are not going to gain anything. My suggestion would be to schedule this out and do it right. Line up babysitters and schedule your dates. It takes 20+ hours to CREATE romantic love and 15 hours to maintain. You might as well change your habits NOW to a schedule that will support your marriage.

Melody, that link you posted me above linked to this article:

How to Overcome Sexual Aversion

This sounds very much like what is happening with us. I can see where this might have happened when we were trying to conceive after our loss. Hmmm.

Thanks MNG! The inventory will be a good source for ideas about how to get in couple time when we can't get a sitter.

DOnt forget to check out my previous post to you!

zeb, go to this thread and scroll down to the second post. It quotes Dr Harley from his book on WHY you need to ignore the EN questionaires when it comes to UA time and focus on the top 4 intimate emotional needs:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=159017&Number=2323541#Post2323541

I missed that when we scrolled over to page 2. Thanks!

And zeb, keep in mind that the time spent at home should be a small percentage of your UA time. It is not quality UA time that, alone, can make a difference. The home environment is much less romantic than going out and it is too easy to get disrupted by a phone or pending chores or TV. And when you wait until children are asleep, you are usually exhausted and not at your best. Contrast that to going out at 5 or 6, when you have the most energy, and are dressed up to go out.