...an interesting look inside the mind of a wayward...

Now THERE'S a great topic for a book, or a clinical study!

If "mind" is going to be thought of including emotions, as well as rational thought it might be expected that the "typical" WS would have high levels of:
- selfishness
- recklessness
- duplicity

At the same time, the WS would likely show reduced levels of:
- loyalty
- strategic vision
- responsibility

Someone should write a grant proposal to "map" the emotional/intellectual differences between the "infidels" and the "loyalists".

GJM, this thread I have linked may be of some interest to you. You too NG, if you haven't already seen it. Written by a FWW

Inside the Wayward Mind

My wife said all of those things except #17

Today I stayed home with my 8 year old because he wasn't feeling well. I also picked up the other two from school so that my W could go to her counseling appointment. I had my doubts that she went where she said she was going, but of course I didn't say anything because I didn't know for sure and didn't want to guess. She came over to pick the kids up at 3, but my 11 year old was doing homework so she asked if she could cook at my place. As she was leaving, my son asked me to ask her to bring something of his back from her place. My W rolled her window down to talk to me. I saw some paper work and a business card of the counselor sitting on the passenger seat that had been given to her after her appointment. I didn't inquire about it, but felt a little relieved to see it there since she had no idea I would be chasing her down to talk to her.

We sat outside and talked for a couple of hours. It was enjoyable. Any time we can hold a conversation is very enjoyable. She made dinner and I offered to help, but was politely declined. Over all the dinner went well and we watched some shows together and the kids showered over my place.

Right before dinner, my W got an email about a job she had applied for as a deputy sheriff. They accepted her application for review and there are some other steps she has to go through in order to qualify to attend the academy. It turns out that the academy is about 300 yards from her house. It's 6 months long and the hours are from 7-4. We talked about the opportunity it would be for her to start a career in something she was interested in.

I felt a little uneasy because I felt left behind. She was talking about how she would get the kids on her days off because her schedule would be 4 on 3 off. I told her I would love to be there for her to support her career instead of having to worry about custody arrangements. She said that she takes things one day at a time and wakes up grateful that she's alive. I saw where things were going and let it go after that. We enjoyed the rest of the night and they left at 9:45.

My 11 year old was talking to my W when he heard us discussing the potential job and he chimed in. He was upset that she doesn't share things with the kids. She of course told him that it's grown up business and he's just a kid. He told her that she is supposed to be an open book and stop hiding stuff. I kept listening to see where he was going with it. She made a comment about the living situation and his reply was "if you wouldn't have left, we wouldn't be going through this". It was a trigger for me and hurt me to hear those words from him. Her come back was that this is how it is and get used to it. I wanted to intervene and probably should have because of his age, but he was right! I couldn't bring myself to say anything. I only corrected him when he started becoming disrespectful.

If we end up divorced and she gets this job, the good thing is that she will make enough money so that I won't have to make the kids suffer any time they need things. I'm still hoping she pulls out of the fog though. Only time will tell.....

The job sounds like an environment for affairs galore but don't let that be a concern at this point. If you reconcile, it would be best that she not be surrounded by men who would be partners at work.....going off to talk on the way to places and etc.

And

counselors usually listen to clients and don't make moral judgements about their quest to leave a marriage and head out to self fulfillment.

Guess I am piping in just to say
keep with YOUR plan.

Be aware in plan A and hopeful
but

keep knowing you can only control yourself. Your actions and your choices of actions and hopefully that will be powerful stuff.

My thoughts exactly. Some times I try to convince myself that maybe it's best for ME to move on. What keeps me fighting is my kids and knowing that a family life would be better for all of us staying together. I love my wife, but I can't control anything, but me and that's the hard part. Not that I want to control her. I just wish she would see things in the same way.

Gunny, you want to simplify this? The reason I ask is because it is unnerving especially when the wife moves out (mine did), gets her own place (mine did), talk up how we will do things as a two house family (mine did), blah, blah, blah!

So, after seeing these things happen that supposedly mean it is over...you are usually left with the feeling that 1. It is over, and 2. why am I still standing here?

Before I tell you how to make it easy, let me remind you that your situation is textbook. It is going just as almost every other one goes on here. Remember that:

1. She left
2. She means it
3. She is temporarily insane
4. Which means #3 negates numbers 1 and 2

Okay? Neither of you know how this will end. You know the odds. You know that there are things you can do that will increase the odds greatly in your direction. She hasnt a clue what she is doing!

But even in this, there are no guarantees. And one day, you may actually be done...and want to move on.

So, here is the simple way to know when you are done. I did this everyday throughout my long ordeal. And if it wasnt for this, I would have caved early on...and we would have been divorced.

Here it is: every morning before dawn, while the kids are sleeping...walk into their rooms, one at a time, sit down and look at them for 5 minutes each. Let your thoughts go wherever they want to go.

Once you have done this with all of the kids, then go back to your room and ask yourself: am I done?

When the answer is "yes"...then you are done.

I already know the answer without having to do that. And in order for me not to be done, I have to live in constant pain each day. My taker doesn't like that at all. My giver is all beat up and punch drunk......embrace the suck, I know.

I hear you. And embrace the Suck, indeed.

But never underestimate where you are and where you might end up. Your body and mind can only take so much. If she continues, there WILL come a day where you cannot go on. And there will be many days where you think you are close. Which is why I did this with the kids.

So, in my times of confusion and pain...I looked at those kids and asked myself: do I have one more day in me?

Actually, I did reach the point of saying I had no more. Go back and look at my threads. After we had gone so long, and then finally got through court...I went home, laid down and told God that I was done. I had fought my last battle on this. That I was tired. And for three months, I went completely dark on my wife, as we waited for the divorce to be finalized.

Well, God knew I had no more fight left in me. That even my kids now could not get me moving. So, He just let me rest. Unbekownst to me, He was working hard on her. and then one day, four months later, I got a call that she wanted to meet.

By that time, I had healed a lot of wounds. I had gathered more strength.

So, even if you are done...remember, there are three people in the marriage. And He wasnt done yet!

I remember reading about what you went through. Like so many others, your story is what helps me keep hope and faith that things can turn around. I often wonder if the time I spend with my wife has any affect on her because it has an affect on me. Saturday we're going bowling and Sunday we are going to run around the lake together. Hopefully I can keep these things up. I guess I don't have a choice.

You have to be nice to your Giver.

Mine likes to eat chocolate. Heck, my Giver and Taker both enjoy it.

GJM - There are many people here with you.

I have been standing for my marriage for 18 months. It is the hardest thing I have ever done in my life. I believe God, myself, and maybe two friends are all that are left to back me (WH is very very very bad today!!!)

I look at my WH as a crazy delusional wack job today ... my amazing husband is in there. I know he is in there somewhere.

This will be the hardest fight of your life, but the most rewarding.

I have no idea if my marriage will be saved. Divorce has been filed by WH, and by all accounts it looks over.

With that some fog just recently lifted, and I am seeing pockets of my husband. Then 30 seconds later the alien returns, and then 30 seconds later loving husband returns. It is crazy how the wayward mind works.

We stand with you on this forum. We know you daily, hourly, and minute by minute struggles because are will you going through the exact same emotions.

My strength today is Christ's strength. My own strength is gone, and I only stand because Christ is holding me up.

Total surrender is the only way to survive!!!

Tough~

GJM, I was in much the same situation as you, except my W and I weren't living separately. We were separate within the same house...her sleeping on the couch for over a year, etc.

I don't know if you guys will make it or not, as others have pointed out, but odds are, every good interaction you have with your W has an affect.

Look at it this way. She's in huge conflict with herself right now. And every time she's with you and has a good time, that makes that conflict greater. How can she have a good time with you when she's convinced herself that you're the evil empire? That's why you're seeing those periods where after you guys have a good time together, she'll pull back.

I had a good friend (who had the same experience in his marriage) tell me during my situation that when my W was in a foul mood, that was actually good, because it shows she was conflicted. In essence, good moods = bad, bad moods = good. Now eventually, good moods = good, but early on, it's almost a good thing to see some bad moods in a wayward.

For a good 6 - 7 months, my wife would go thru movements towards the marriage (and me) and then pull back. But as I kept filling her LB, those pull backs got fewer and farther between.

One last illustration and I'll quit. Steve Harley told me this about dealing with a WW that is convinced the marriage is over but still willing to spend some time with their husband.

It's like you've come to a deep river and your wife is on the other side. The current is too strong to swim across, so what do you do so your wife and you can get to each other? You start throwing stones into the river (making LB deposits although on the surface they don't look like she's accepting them). At first, it all seems useless because you're not seeing any benefits because the stones just disappear under the surface (taker needs to be stuffed here). Throw enough stones in and eventually you'll see some stones poking above the surface here and there (your wife starts to notice and accept those LB deposits). Keep throwing more in and eventually you begin to see a way you could get across if you were willing to get your feet wet and that's when the hard work of recovery can begin.

I did much as MM did when I'd get discouraged. I'd poke my head in my son's bedroom and watch him sleep. Thankfully I never got to a point where I was ready to hang it up, but I was close a number of times. Keep making those LB deposits whenever and where ever you can. It might not seem like progress, but I suspect she's noticing.

H4U

It's amazing how we are all tied together in a tragic, yet touching way. What is also amazing is how similar all of our stories are. It seems as if the WSs take the same class because they all say the same things. We have all been sent here to help each other in whatever way we can. I would like to see MB support groups in my community one day. I find myself staring at this web site ALL day while at work. Without it, I wouldn't know what to do with myself. I haven't learned to do things on my own or figured out a way to love myself yet.

Like you, my supporters are very few, except what we all share together on this board. I cling to my faith and pray as your name says, but even then I find myself lost. Not knowing what I should be doing in the eyes of the lord. I ask for guidance so that I can do what I'm supposed to do. I know I'm a good person and do as much right as I can. I feel selfish when I talk to God because I'm always asking for the same things over and over. I also give thanks for what I have and the people in my life. I've run into many people that are in my situation and pray for them as well.

I often wonder if those people were sent to me to help them. I assume that they are so I offer what I can and point them to this web site and books from Dr Harley. I crave human contact constantly. I've always known that I was a social peson, but never realized how much I hate being alone. This has really been a test for me. My children are awesome, but I doubt they feel the same about me. They don't want to entertain me on a constant basis. That's why I need this board. It keeps me from saying F/U and going out to be a ladies man.

My patience has been tested. My anger is gone. My soul has been transformed. I am depleted. I am at the mercy of God as I wait patiently for him to work in me and my wife.

That's exactly what I noticed. I posted to you all how good last night went. This morning I sent her a text to ask about the boys birthdays next week and she didn't respond back. For 4 hours I waited to hear something back and nothing. I then started thinking that maybe something happened to her on the way to work since she wakes up so early. I called her work and she was withdrawn. Once I noticed this, I gave her some information and kept it short.

Thanks for the analogy from Dr Harley. I will try to keep reminding myself of this.

GJM, One more thing that might help you. What I'm quoting below is probably floating around here somewhere, but it's easier to just retype it than look for it. It was written by a poster named Ark. I printed this out and read it every morning. I can't tell you how much it helped on some of my lowest days.

The Lighthouse
Your spouse is in huge conflict...

The good news is and the truth is that they are totally incapable of a healthy relationship with anyone right now...

The competition we believe that exists with the OP is a shallow empty reflection of God's light in this world...

It's empty and lonely no matter how good the rush.

Their actions are actions that they themselves do not like in themselves right now....though the need to go back again and again and attempt to prove themselves wrong or right is strong...they do not like what they are doing...

Their actions towards you, the children, the OP and themselves keep them from engaging in any kind of real interactions with real depth and truth.

All they offer are misguided attempts to fill the void that has appeared in their life...yet the filling is way to fleeting to sustain them and the truth is with them each night he or she lays down regardless of whom is next to them....

They are the living cliche of no matter where you go to hide, there YOU are...

He or she is lost to themselves..

And you stand at that point of being the lighthouse home...even though they create the waves that block their vision from seeing that...

You become the lighthouse...you fill your home with light, calmness and sanctuary..

Just visualize yourself as a lighthouse...

You offer them glimpses into that sanctuary at every chance you get...you invite them towards it...let them know it is there as much as you can in a most subtle way....

They are untrustable right now...but you know that so they can't hurt you right now...they will spend great energy to convince others differently...but you know better....

You show the path by also protecting the children from their painful actions...set clear boundaries that the OP is not part of your children's lives...without love busting...offer alternatives that let them see the children...but be clear that the OP is to have no access to them..you fill the children's lives with stability..they deserve it and need it more than anything else...

Do not discuss or powerstruggle with them on irrational movements...seek out and validate the rational ones with lots of praise for when he or she chooses correctly..

Your spouse is very lonely and sad right now...but that's ok..no one can stay very long in that chaos...it is wearisome to the soul...

And remove yourself from any aspect in participating or adding to the chaos and eventually they will see that you are the only one who stood with clarity and reason when they needed it most...

Be the lighthouse....

Hope this helps you. I know it did me.

H4U

Wow...deep stuff. Thank you for taking the time to post that. It means a lot to me.

HFU, I was actually thinking about the Lighthouse analogy for GJM, and then I read your post to him.

GJM I have skimmed you post and am under the impression that you want to save your marriage but have doubts about your wife. What I am going to says to you gives you hope. My wife was 15 and I was 19 whenever we met. She had never dated anyone but me. Whenever she turned 18 we were married. 7 years latter we had a beautiful daughter. 7 years after are daughter was born I came home from work and my wife said she had something to talk to me about. I said what is it she replied "I want a divorce". This hit me out of the blue I had no idea. There was another man she worked with that was "friendly" with her. I begged her to stay and let's work things out she agreed. About 2 weeks later I came home and the phone rang it was a lawyer wanting to speak with my wife about a divorce. I told him I would let her know he had called whenever she got home. I called her and ask if she wanted a divorce and she said yes I told you that weeks ago. I made an appointment with a lawyer that night. We met with the lawyer whenever she got home from work. She gave me everything including our daughter. I begged her to come back but she refused saying I love you but I am not in love with you. The following weeks we would speak me begging for her to come home her wanting to set me up with some of her friends. I had come to the conclusion that the marriage was over. I then confessed that I had had an affair during our marriage it did not phase her she said she could care less. The following weeks before the court date I had ask her to stop disrupting my life by coming over to my house unannounced. The day before I was due in court she called and wanted me to come over to talk to her I agreed. I was sure it had something to do with our daughter because I was sure the marriage was done. When I set down to talk to her she had tears in her eyes and said that she had made a terrible mistake. She ask if I would consider trying to rebuild our marriage. Little did she know how happy I was but I told her I would think about it. Later I went over to bring her home. Why am I telling you this because there is always hope. We have been married almost 36 years. me saying yes was the smartest thing I have ever done in my life.

That's a touching story and I thank you for sharing it with me. I do want to save my marriage. I have a lot of odds against me right now. There is no indication that the affair is still active, but I know she has been emailing other guys. She has also cheated at least one other time in 2009. I handled things so wrong by not coming here sooner. She is now making plans for her self to establish a career and go to school. That's a good thing, but it's so she doesn't need to depend on me. I hope she succeeds because the children will benefit from it. I hope my wife will come to me before the divorce is final and want to rebuild our marriage.