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So...in his mind, he feels he (or maybe "we"?) can't win either way? A loveless marriage but the chance to continue being a full-time father and keep all the material trappings of married life...or the situation you describe. I have heard the expression on this board by some that living with a former adulterer is like eating a sh*t sandwich. Your version of the alternative facing broken is not much better. If I could take all his pain, I would do it. I f-ed up and I can't take it back, and nothing I have done has helped his pain. I became a horrible wife to him, and I'm even worse at trying to recover. I thought that by being capable of handling things on my own after he moved out that I was not being needy, that I was showing him that I didn't need him for mundane things like money or a babysitter, but that I wanted him for *him,* that I didn't want anyone else. Still don't. Not much compensation in that, I know...sort of like closing the barn door after the wh*re horse has gotten out. Folks told me to avoid relationship talk, not to vent, and I came here for encouragement. In reality, I was probably just doing more harm than good.
Thank you for your honesty, Aphelion. I need to hear your words. Hurts, but I need to hear them. I think you've been in a place where you know more about what is going on inside broken's mind. I do wish he had someone to talk to who understands what he is feeling. I doubt he'd be interested in posting here again. He might be willing to exchange emails if you wanted - don't know if it would be better to go thru the mods, as I just don't know how he'd take it coming from me.
FWW
"Snow and adolescence are the only problems that disappear if you ignore them long enough." ~ Earl Wilson
How much of this nearly over loveless stuff is still about you?
Did you get the clinically depressed part? He should be on an AD or AA if not already.
But, as you note, the suggestion probably can�t come from you. Will some third party he listens to make the recommendation to him?
Life as you once knew it is most likely over. You and BH probably should explore what is next best for your children. Little enough will be as good for them, of course. But the two of you might be able to minimize the negative changes.
And before you ask, I stayed for the children (DS and her nephew we were raising). Indeed, worked out better for them than all the alternatives I could foresee.
I�m going to be away for a while. Getting ready to go to the Far East for a few weeks. If it somehow transpires BH cares to communicate with some of his brothers in arms, I will check in when I can.
"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan
"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky
WS: They are who they are.
When an eel lunges out And it bites off your snout Thats a moray ~DS
I had 2 sessions with Jennifer back in Sept. and Oct. of 2010. She was coaching me on how to encourage H to get on board with MB. Unfortunately, nothing worked.
I think you should speak to Dr Harley himself on the radio show. I have heard him say that there is no point someone in your situation trying to tolerate this stalemate for so long. If your H won't recover with you, you need to call it a day.
I agree with SugarCane that you should speak to Dr. Harley. It's a free opportunity; take advantage of it!
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!
Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010
FYI, I sent an email to Joyce last week. Haven't heard anything back yet but will update when I do.
Hi wulffpack_girl,
You might want to send it again because sometimes the emails go to spam.
It took me 3 times and she finally got it.
My second question to them she got in a day. You might want to try again.
FWW/BW (me) WH 2nd M for both Blended Family with 7 kids between us Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
I resent my email yesterday...wierd b/c when I sent my emails before (which was over a year ago) I got a response from Joyce in a day. Going on vacation next week so if I don't hear anything this week I'll just wait till we get back. It's probably a sign...I kind of have a feeling what Dr. H's response will be so I don't know that there is really a point to it anymore.
I know H is depressed. He has gone to his doctor. I do wish he could find someone to talk to, I understand he does not feel safe talking to me. I am worried about him. And yes, I know, it is my fault for setting all this in motion. Yes, my A probably caused his performance at work to suffer, so I am to blame for him losing his job along with everything else.
I read HFD's post about his FWW, how she seems sometimes stuck in this self-punishing, self-loathing mode. I imagine in my head that getting out of that mindset must be (?) should be (?)easier when you are working together to heal each other and the marriage. Maybe so, maybe not. Anyway, addressing this here so as not to t/j HFD:
Originally Posted by HFD
She'll say: "I want to believe again that I really am a good person who made a terrible mistake". Not as often, but again, her self-loathing, sadness and shame still weigh heavy on her. The consequences to our marriage and the kids still weigh heavy on her...it's lessening, and I am doing all I can to help her along...but I feel there's a sense of self-punishment?!? that she's allowing to linger.
Just the other day my mother and I were talking, and she said something very similar, that I had made "a mistake." I told her I simply can't see it that way. A mistake is when you wash a red shirt in with your H's white socks. Mistakes are minor. Mistakes are typos on the work of life. An A goes beyond that. Maybe some of us (FWS's) do allow that sense of self-punishment to linger, but how can I not hate myself because of what I did to my H, and how much I've taken from him. Aphelion's words just served to crystallize that for me. No matter how much I want him now, he can't see that, or maybe he does see it and it doesn't matter, because three years ago I didn't want him. For our marriage, for our situation, there is no "just compensation" I can offer my husband, because what I did altered the fabric of our lives irreparably.
FWW
"Snow and adolescence are the only problems that disappear if you ignore them long enough." ~ Earl Wilson
I am robbing someone at axe point. Meaning to or not, I cut her left arm off.
Immediately afterwards I express remorse, beg forgiveness and act convincingly contrite.
Then when her back is turned I cut her right arm off.
Three years later her arms are sill chopped off. Doh...
The woman cannot work, swim, live a normal life nor function well in pretty much any desired way.
And it is now her fault?
Let us compare.
A woman gets breast cancer and cannot adequately meet her husband�s ENs because of her deteriorating health and aggressive treatment side effects. SF in particular is lacking, perhaps.
Cancer is a physical illness. That is sufficient excuse for her to not have to meet her husband�s ENs. The husband�s in sickness and in health solemn vows still hold.
However, we will have to ignore the usual mental complications in this cancer scenario. According to you these do not apply. The husband can ethically leave her if after the cancer is in remission for two years she is still sad, fearful, upset, and depressed, maybe even angry and not meeting his ENs the way he wants them met.
(Does this sound like a national news story from last year? It is. The sick wife eventually died, which pretty much let the adulterous husband off the hook.)
Let us think.
Stretched analogies? As a BH I don�t think so at all. Many people actually do suffer long term mental complications from extreme betrayal and severe emotional distress (call it PTSD if you want, but it�s more complicated than that). Good on you that you do not have such pedestrian weaknesses. But all that really tells me is you have no empathy for long-suffering BHs.
I am pretty sure I understand your basic message: Get over severe spiritual and mental devastation on your timeline or move on. The adulterer�s ENs are all important. The children be damned. The BH be damned.
Your post is not sound MB. It is your opinion. You are not helping. You should stay out of the way and just let her/him/them (probably in that order) talk to Dr H.
"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan
"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky
WS: They are who they are.
When an eel lunges out And it bites off your snout Thats a moray ~DS
No, according to my logic you are talking directly from your rectum with your analogies.
Why?
Because I know the timeline in this case. Because I know what has gone on in this case. Because it is oft quoted that if a marriage hasn't improved after 2 years that the couple should separate and prepare for divorce.
That's where this case is.
I don't make excuses for myself, and I'll not make excuses for other BSs to do NOTHING.
Recover or divorce.
Her H is doing neither.
Don't presume to lecture me buddy.
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
WPG's husband left the home for nearly a year, and that was a year post-Dday.
I believe two things; that WPG has been remorseful, and that WPG wants to recover the marriage.
It seems that Broken does not.
He was here for a very short time, but didn't really do a lot in that time.
It's been over 2 years since Dday.
The situation is not good for either of them as it stands now. The man needs have actions to match whatever his internal decision is; full marriage, or full divorce.
TWO YEARS.
For your axe-murderer analogy; what good does it serve the victim to stand there and bleed, and do nothing?
What good does it do the cancer patient to not seek any treatment?
Recover, or divorce.
Doing nothing, as Broken is doing now, results in... exactly what is going on now - a marriage that is a crippled version of the pre-affair marriage.
I'm two years out myself. I can say that our marriage is better than it ever was, despite those days where I feel like dropping it all and walking. And, with a plan, I can combat those days with action. Whereas inaction would likely leave not only my marriage, but myself, crippled and broken.
I deserve better, my daughters deserve better... and dare I say it, my wife deserves better.
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
Your post is not sound MB. It is your opinion. You are not helping. You should stay out of the way and just let her/him/them (probably in that order) talk to Dr H.
This statement applies to your post, Aphelion.
Leave wpg alone. Stop coming here to tell her how much you enjoy seeing her reaping what she sowed. YOU should stay out of the way.
The man needs have actions to match whatever his internal decision is; full marriage, or full divorce.
Another "broken" weighing in.
Disclaimer first, though: I am not here to recover my marriage, so read the following in light of this fact.
Maybe WPG's Broken HAS made a decision, and maybe his decision is working for him right now.
I don't want to recover my marriage, but I have no reason to get divorced. I am certainly not interested in finding anyone else and I am not yet ready to be alone, as I will be alone for a very long time. The relationship I'm in now is working for me. I have financial support, domestic support and a recreational companion. On a day-to-day basis, I'm not miserable, I'm....neutral. Trying recovery (AGAIN) or getting divorced would be a huge shift to the left of neutral, and I don't want to do that right now.
Things are....adequate. Passable. Tolerable. Etc.
I'm fine with that, for now. Maybe things will change, and I'll be motivated to "get off the fence," one way or the other. Maybe things will change shortly, maybe things won't change for a long time. Maybe things will just stay like this. Obviously, what CGIR ultimately chooses to do is a major variable.
Who knows? I'll wait and see.
But what I DO know is, right now, up here on the fence, the seating is acceptable and the view is all right, despite how it might look from the ground.
I'm certainly not advocating this position to anyone; I just wanted to tell what I'm doing as it's one possibility of what WPG's Broken might be doing.
Maybe right now he's not content, but....neutral. Passable. Tolerable. Etc.
Sometimes, doing nothing IS, if not exactly a course of action, a decision.
And maybe instead of making a decision he's not sure about (i.e., going all in or getting all out), he's waiting for more information to inform that decision.
Anyway, my handful of change.
BV
Me - WW/BW - 49 Him - CGIR - WH/BH 49 Married 27 years, together 33 (HS sweethearts) No kids DDay #1 - 1989 EA co-worker DDay #2 - 2004 internet porn DDay #3 - July 2006 EA different co-worker DDay #4 - Aug. 2006 EA with OW #2 was actually a PA DDay #5 - Sept. 2010 False recovery - H dishonest about both affairs and porn usage DDay# 6 - Sept. 26, 2010 - Full disclosure - 1989 EA was actually a PA and lasted one year. 2006 PA more extensive than originally thought. 1992 ONS with prostitute.
The man needs have actions to match whatever his internal decision is; full marriage, or full divorce.
Another "broken" weighing in.....
...Anyway, my handful of change.
BV
Me being a guy, and BH more times than I can count,(or want to remember), can certainly understand your position..
But for the life of me..I would have to side with HHHs position/quote. That is the only one with life.
Me 56 Former BS Widowed 5-17-09 --married 25 years. 4 children DS-35 previous marriage--18-22 DGrandSons 6 and 4 Me former BS DD-29 with DGDs 5 and 1yr DSs 26 and 23 Teilhard de Chardin..“We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience.” ...Sounds about right to me.
And maybe instead of making a decision he's not sure about (i.e., going all in or getting all out), he's waiting for more information to inform that decision.
But this isn't what Marriage Builders is all about. This is fence-sitting ... just ... at ... a ... really ... slow ... pace.
And this isn't what Marriage Builders is about. MB is for recovery. What WPG has described is exactly the kind of damaged marriage that many people end up in when they don't properly recover.
WPG's husband may be "satisfied" but WPG certainly isn't. It's why she came here for help.
But in any event, it seems like her case is worthy of a Dr. Harley call. For sure.
If anybody has any suggestions or can help...I have sent 4 emails to the radio show and apparently they are all going to their spam folder. Essentially, I was trying to ask the question folks are telling me to ask:
Originally Posted by me
...at the end of September, my husband lost his job. The stepmother (who he had been living with) was losing her home because she could not pay the mortgage. He eventually moved back home. When I asked him at the beginning of this year if he would have moved home if she was not losing the house, he told me �Probably not.� He has not found a job, although he has been looking. He helps with the children and cooking. He does his own laundry. We sleep in the same bed and still have sexual relations.
He went to a doctor about a month or so ago and came home with a prescription for antidepressants, although I learned this only by looking through his things. We are living a very independent lifestyle now even though we are back under the same roof, and most of my attempts to reach out are rebuffed. He rejects any attempts at affection unless we are having sexual relations (for example, if I move too close to him or move like I am going to touch him he'll move out of my reach). When we do have sex, to me it seems more aggressive than affectionate, although he doesn't hurt me physically. We talk, but in no way is it "intimate" conversation, it is mostly businesslike - finances, kids. When dealing with those types of issues, he is generally polite, and if I ask him to do something, he is helpful. On other matters, though, often I will ask a question or attempt to start a conversation and I am met by silence. He shows no interest in my day-to-day life and feelings. To be quite honest, it is very similar to the way our marriage was pre-affair. He is not interested in spending any UA time with me alone (other than sex), but sometimes I can interest him in doing things as a family.
I have posted for a long time on the message boards and it seems at this point there are three schools of thought as relates to my situation. One is that I should do whatever it takes for as long as it takes to "win" my husband back. The second is that I should accept it and live with it in order to minimize additional consequences to my husband & children, accepting that this is a cost of my infidelity. The third is that after 2+ years, I need to accept that this marriage is unsalvageable and move on.
I don't know that asking^^^ matters anymore. I think I know what Dr. H's answer would be.
I don't want a divorce, I don't want anyone else, but what I want now really doesn't matter, does it? I made my decision three years ago.
I think, as BV said, maybe he's simply "content" now and finds the situation generally tolerable. The EN's of DS, FS, and FC were in his top 5 the last time (the one and only time) he did the ENQ, and perhaps he is satisfied with how they are being met.
It's not MB, it's not recovery, but perhaps my job now is to learn to be content as well, accepting that this is how things are, and learning to live with it.
FWW
"Snow and adolescence are the only problems that disappear if you ignore them long enough." ~ Earl Wilson
Keep your hopes up, that he will eventually lick his wounds and come back to be an active participant in the marriage.
This is what happens to some people, and it can be reversed and overcome, in time.
Actually, it is part of recovery, and it is MB. All of the issues are there, and the consequences of a trusting man who has been broken. You are just as you said, stuck in Limbo.
He is reappraising where he went wrong, what is wrong with his thinking, and still blames himself. Its that wonderful male ego. If we are the top dog and responsible, then it must be our fault.
Or he can resort to even more extreme thinking, that women are all evil, and you are their leader..which I know he doesn't believe either.
Hes still in pain and trying to figure it out, and he still loves you, but is willing to resort to the basics, SF and such, and not be as open yet.
My hat goes off to you for sticking, and only time will tell, but if you give up, you lose. That's the nature of all fights.
Make no mistake, this is a fight for your marriage
I don't want a divorce, I don't want anyone else, but what I want now really doesn't matter, does it? I made my decision three years ago.
Of course it matters! Your self pity is talking there girl.
We make choices every day. These choices we make, each day, matter. You put your big girl pants on and rise to the occasion of what you are willing to live with. Then recognize what you're willing to live with, are, YOUR, choices.
You're not making the same choices you made three years ago, are you? Of course not! So stop entertaining the self pity, OK!
You now have, what you've called, your Pre-A Marriage. With one major difference; you now have EP's in place. Are your being forced to stay or to go? Of course not! It's YOUR decision what you do.
Dr. Jennifer Chalmers once told me that if my spouse fell ill for a long period of time and was unable to meet my needs or if I need encouragement, I need to surround myself with friends, of the same sex, that can meet the needs that my spouse is not able or willing to meet.
Look at 1 Timothy 1:15-17 and find some encouragement there.
Recovery began 10/07;
Meeting my wife's EN's is my "thank you" that refuses to be silenced.
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