Do you have an atty? A good one that only specializes in family law and isn't lazy? The reasons you stated shouldn't be grounds for sole custody. Here in my state it is hard to get sole custody unless you can prove something like abuse, addiction, safety issues, etc.

Regarding telling your kids, did you happen to discuss this with your kids pedi or school counselor? I discussed it with both and they both backed me up, and my pedi actually emphasized that kids do blame themselves so it is better to tell the kids the truth. I made sure to explain to the counselor that I wanted my children to know that they could trust me not to lie to them about all of the changes going on in their life. She was completely in agreement.

In D, the courts understand that either parent can make all the allegations/arguments they want. It doesn't really mean anything if she is "convincing". If you have been an involved parent (school, doctors, friends parents, etc) then the custody evaluator won't just take your WW's word for it, I believe they will go talk to all these folks. Besides, again, not being a very involved parent isn't really grounds for sole custody as far as I understand it...

You got a ton of great weapons to fight this for melody, pepper, and the others.

Print all of the relavent articles out then re write these facts into a well connected thesis.

Then memorize.

Then take this thesis with you to refer to if your memory fails when you have to meet with the custody evaluated. And info for your lawyer when things come done to court.

I agree with all the above guidance. It's all important in terms of understanding the devastating affects of adultery on children (AND the worsening affects of lying about it, directly, or by omission, or by distraction or not allowing kids to accept "adult issues" which impact their lives). I think truly understanding this concept is crucial to how you raise your kids for the rest of their lives.

Said. I also have such a problem with your ex "convincing" a public, impartial, worker. Is this custody person supposed to be objective or is she your wife's sycophant? In many situations like this it seems that if you are not being treated fairly, you have an option to request another such worker; maybe through an appeal process or something of that nature.
I'm sorry to be emotional, it's just very bothersome, this whole thing; that an official of the court could be so overly swayed by what amounts to personal opinion and heresay in such an important matter is absolutely frightening.

opt

Yes, I have an atty that specializes in family law. These concerns are being raised by her through the custody evaluator. Our attorneys have not been involved with this process. Each side gets a copy of the report that is submitted by the evaluator to the court but attorneys have not been in the custody eval sessions.

I have been involved with the kids but she has done the majority of the school, doc stuff because she has been home.

I want to be careful here. I don't "know" the evaluator is being swayed. I won't know until the report is submitted to the court - unfortunately. However, I am ver concerned because these are the issues being raised by my wife and I want to respond as best as I can.

Ok. Ever have the use of a recorder used against you as an example of lack of boundaries and controlling behavior? Mine was discovered and she is doing just that. Not to mention she is using it as another reason why our relationship can't be recovered.

You are in the divorce process right?
So, if she's trying to say you don't trust her, well, um, duh. Of course you don't. You are considering her a business adversary and will employ every tactic available to you to gain an advantage in court and protect your family from her behavior. Maybe she thinks you are a push-over and were going to roll over and let her have her way; but you are not about to do that at the risk of your childrens' welfare.

If your relationship is to be recovered it will be on a very narrow path which will include complete transparency - on both sides. If that happens to include VARs in both of your cars (email and cell phone password exchanges, GPS's etc), then that goes along with the abandonment of BLIND TRUST which is HORRIBLE for marriages. If she is interested in why people shouldn't trust each other, print out a couple of articles about human nature and adultery.

this is a FAVORITE battle cry of the wayward. It's right out of the book, pg 114, don't let it rattle you -- you're doing the right thing.

opt

oh, and it's not lack of boundaries. Quite the opposite. You are protecting yourself. That is the definition of boundaries.
And if she had nothing to hide, she would not have a problem with being surveiled.

Have you been honest with her about what divorce is going to look like, Sbt? This is one step I neglected (I had my reasons, but still at times wish I had handled it differently). I believe you should be forthright about that you don't believe it's healthy for kids to "co parent" and that you will not give your ex the "fantasy divorce" she's looking for....
I can elaborate if you wish.

opt

I just have to add my opinion that her even mentioning the idea of reconciliation seems....interesting. Somewhere in there perhaps she understands that the best chance for HER happiness is actually with you. And a few boundaries of her own. And some accountability. I'd keep an eye on that if you are open to it at all. Marriages have survived affairs -- I don't know the extent of your situation or your feelings on this; but with the plans found here (e.g. extraordinary precautions, etc.), there is always a chance.

opt

First, yes we are in the D process. It's been going on for over a year. We are in the final stages of court ordered custody evaluation right now. For various reasons I won't go into right now we still live together, sleep in the same bed, etc. I won't go into the reason for the recorder other than to protect myself from false accusations.

Yes, please elaborate. In the past she has actually articulated to me her vision of divorce. It looks something like this. She and the kids live in the house, I go to work in the morning, come home in the evening, we have family dinner, hang out and cart kids around to various activities, put kids to bed, then I leave and sleep somewhere else and we aren't married. She even told me at one point a while back that I would be the only person she would have sex with - even after the D. I believe I have chipped away at all of this but I honestly have no idea what she believes now. There is SO MUCH more I could share but I am a little afraid these forums may be monitored by her or her friends. I'd share it all privately but don't know if that's possible.

I am open to it. I have a thread back in the SAA forum. I don't know what she is open to. I believe she loves me. I believe she is hurt, confused, angry and has a need to WIN at everything. I believe she has been and is almost completely incapable of forgiveness. I was unable to plan B because separation was not an option.

okay, sorry I wasn't aware of your thread in SAA; so if I don't have the background info I may be repeating things you've heard over there. But here goes anyway and I hope it bears reiteration.
I believe it's important for a wayward to hear from the BS that there will be no fantasy divorce (if you don't intend to give it). **They often don't listen -- case in point would be Limbo, who was very clear with his now-exWW). However, I neglected this part (again for reasons I felt valid at the time) and wonder now if that was the best thing to omit from the process.

Remind her the D to you, means it's OVER. No dinners, no getting each other's business. Done, minimal communication, only what relates to the kids. You realize it's VERY harmful for the kids to see a "fantasy divorce" where everyone 'gets along' because you are just reinforcing a terrible concept and one that they will be inclined to perpetuate. -It's confusing and damaging- You don't want them to grow up thinking one spouse can cheat, destroy the family, and wind up with something "better." Because it's NOT. It's NOT better. Never will be no matter how much everyone "gets along". Divorce is sick. and No matter how happy two divorced parents are, it will pale in comparison to how happy they COULD be in a loving relationship surrounded by their adoring children, raising their kids TOGETHER, in the same household.

You don't want to get ot the other side of this and fell like this stone was left unturned...

just out of curiosity, why are you concerned about what she or her friends might read here?

opt

That really has me thinking so I'll need to get back to you on that.

BTW, the thread on SAA is cut off about a year ago so there is it's not current.

So, like I said, I don't know what has happened on the SAA side of it or what you've been through. I do know that the divorce is not final. I do know what that feels like.
I always said I would be willing to accept a reconciliation offer from my nowExww up until the 11th hour. Deep down I hoped however, that there would not be one. So, therefore, I did not make it real clear that I was open to it. Now, I wonder if I was truly honest. It's not a comfortable feeling. I could have been more forthright -- just trying to help you not make that mistake.

Back to the WW. Nobody is incapable of forgiveness. However it's exceedingly difficult for one to forgive themselves and even harder to admit they are wrong. Dr. Harley mentioned in today's radio show how waywards have built-in mechanisms for assuaging their own guilt, because they know deep down they are behaving immorally. It's hard to admit you've destroyed your own dreams, let alone those of your own children's and not to mention the one you swore to protect. She would need massive support from you on this if she ever came to it. She won't ever get that from some OM; she also knows that deep down.

I'm not suggesting you do anything particular SBT (nobody would blame you for running her off after MULTIPLE affairs, good grief). Except that if you're truly open to renewal, I offer suggestions as to how to facilitate that as best you can within your power. It starts with a little thing called openness and honesty (probably a tough concept with someone who has hurt you so much.) She's sleeping next to you? Ask her in the middle of the night what she's open to. You have a right to know -- it's your marriage and she's still your wife according to the contract you both agreed to years ago.

No reconciliation could proceed without massive lists of behavior changes on her part, that's pretty clear. You would be teaching your kids the wrong thing if you didn't protect yourself and require certain assurances.

opt

Ok. I've thought about this and I really have no reason to fear others reading this so I'm going to share some more.

My SAA thread can be found here.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=160786&Number=2400249#Post2400249

Again, it ends a while ago so a lot has happened since then.

There have been several "inappropriate relationship" including the main A, a fling with a guy on a airplane, sexting and ppossibly more with her divorce attorney and an ex high school boy friend. Most people at this point ask why I would ever want to reconcile. I'm not sure but I would if the conditions were right. Obviously I don't want to stay in a relationship where there can be no trust. The main point of posting in this forum is that I am now looking for advice on how to handle situations in the divorce more than advice on how to hold things together. Do I still hold out hope she may realize one day that is is possible for us to have a beautiful future together? Yes. But right now I'm looking to navigate this divorce, trying to get at least 50/50 custody and achieve some kids of equitable split of our assets and debt.

This custody evaluation process has me spooked because it has a huge impact on my future with the kids and it's based mostly on "he said, she said" accusations and the MMPI personality test. Yes, we still have trial but the results of this custody evaluation are very hard to overturn in court.

In the mean time we still live together, sleep together, are intimate, etc. Its crazy and I've struggled with it but so far have allowed the situation to continue because at the root of it there is a lot about this woman that I love.

My take.
You are doing what you need to do for you now, painful and confusing as it is.

You are plan Aing since you live/sleep together and do not love bust as you go through this divorce.

Stop being fear driven. It is tough to not be fear driven as you still are living with her and in the vortex of her drama.

I read so much fear in your thread. It is understandable but will lead you to make poor moves onward.

Make choices that you believe are logical and correct despite wondering how she will use them to attack you.

Don't let the custody issue weaken your resolve to be a father who makes choices that are logical. Use logic vs fear to guide your path.

Your children. Do your very best to retain custody of them but do not let fear of not getting it throw you off your game of being a strong man. They need a person who is brave and true and not flinching, angst ridden leader.

You must do your best to keep custody but know that you will be a fine father even if all the outside forces are against it and it doesn't happen. If that worse scenario happens you must be able to handle it for the childrens' sake. If, for whatever reason, you don't retain custody....you stay connected to them each and every day. You call them, skype them, write them letters they get regularly at home in the mail telling them delightful jokes, you plan adventures with them, are their rock to lean on for anything, teach them new skills,etc.

I say this because the children need you to release control of having to control things. To be able to have clarity of the most important issue in the custody realm. That issue is: a parent who is doing the right thing. modeling family values. modeling behavior to others. modeling strength of logic.

HTH

Thanks. I try. It's hard. I don't always stop from love busting but sometime no matter what I do or say it is taken that way. This has been going on for two years and it is very difficult to do for so long. She sees truth as love busting. That me saying this is wrong and damaging to our family, etc is somehow an assault on her. She is very angry. I asked her to direct that anger at the people that are truly trying to damage our family. Thats LB to her.

I have contemplated fighting again by exposing the unethical practices of her atty and what I believe is an EA with the ex boy friend, but I just don't know if I have the strength and i AM fearful that what's involved with that would be used to harm my position in the custody/divorce process.

Anyway, I hear what you are saying and I'll continue to try to remain calm and logical. I think for the most part I have been that rock the kids needed but I also think I may be so far embroiled in this craziness for so long that Im not sure what normal is anymore.

I'm not a vet, but I think Readings post was excellent. Do what you can do to be a great parent. Your actions speak volumes to your children and they will learn from them regardless of your custody situation. You've made heroic efforts to endure this two years. When you can't take anymore, prepare to go to plan b.

Regarding love busters, your wife wants to avoid the truth and hide from it in the same way a black widow spider seeks the cover of darkness. Shining the light of truth on her will make her cower and recoil. Expect it, and never shrink from honesty and your principles. Dr. Harley says to confront the truth to all, but avoid disrespectful judgments and angry outbursts. Telling her that adultery is harmful to children is truthful, and the admonishment is really in my judgment an act of love for the children. On the other hand, calling her a whore (just an example) is a love buster.

While you're in plan A concentrate on meeting her needs, and when conversations come about the affair, be truthful, honest and direct.

Regarding the divorce, do what you can to protect yourself and the children. Don't let her (and her attorney's) head games take you off your objective. Make sure you have a good attorney too. I'm in a similar situation as you right now. The goals of attaining favorable marriage settlement and providing my spouse an attractive alternative to her affair partner are in conflict, but I'm trying to accomplish both.

Good luck.

J3U makes such an important point here. I remember when I was in Plan A I had a lot of trouble with this concept. Now that I have a better understanding of the concepts, I would say that LB's are LB's. As defined by the one conceptualizer of MB. NOT as defined by our wayward spouses.
As Just3ofUs has pointed out, I reiterate. Just because the wife gets mad at something, doesn't make it a lovebuster. Your feelings, commitments, and understandings, when expressed respectfully are NOT lovebusters. And they also COUNT. You are human too, you are entitled to your hurt and anguish in the situation, just like anyone else would be.
Plan A, in my view (I admit I wasn't real good at it), does NOT mean the wayward has to be happy and content with everything all the time. I think it just means that LB's are avoided and EN's are met when possible. Having an opinion and expressing it with conviction can be a very attractive thing -- just like smelling good and listening with empathy.
The OM is a coward. Be the contrast, even if ww doesn't react positively. It's okay to believe what you believe - that's good for you, good for your kids, and good for the family; she can do with it what she will.

opt

Sbt. I'm trying to understand your situation. Granted I haven't gone through your old thread. I'm sure there is a lot to it.

Meanwhile. I hope you get the custody thing decided and in place ahead of an actual divorce. Once that is in place, maybe you could go into Plan B for your own protection. Not having a sense of what is "normal" is, I believe, unhealthy. It sounds like you're losing perspective of your own ideals.

I can relate. Once the ww moved out I began a personal journey back to who I feel I really am. The madness of lack of boundaries and gray-area living got in my rear-view mirror. Then I found myself centering and becoming more of the parent and person I wanted to be.

As long as something is in place in writing, to show the courts you're not separating in order to be a bad parent, Plan B would be less scary. Perhaps you could finally convince her to move out if she knew it wouldn't be used against her.

opt