Thanks Caracal.

Well, from the text I received from WW yesterday (her response totally unexpected), I was surprised that she is still checking out my Facebook. I honestly thought she could care less what I was posting out there, seriously.

It's just an odd feeling. I open up Outlook this morning at work and I see my WW's emails from yesterday. Looking at her name, I recognize that she's my wife, but looking at her name I also feel like she's just a distant acquaintance.

It makes me wonder just how distant she really feels about me!

GJM - I grabbed this snippet off your thread. I don't think there's been a day that's gone by over the past 6 months that this very question hasn't crossed my mind.

To have known someone so well for 26 years and this other side of them comes out, it's just so unbelievable and surreal.

I don't believe any of her fog-babble or re-written history.

WW's mother is basically on her side because she's a weak person. She has never had an opinion of her own that I've seen in 26 years, everyone in the family knows this. She doesn't like confrontation and will change her mind at the drop of a hat to appease someone. This has A LOT to do with her mother's upbringing. Right now she claims she has done all she can and feels she cannot change her daughter's mind, so she's just siding with her. She doesn't want to do the hard work of being a mother and doing what's right.

The reason I bring this up is my WW also does not like to do the hard work. I think she expects everyone to cater to her and feels entitled. I'm not saying my WW is lazy, just that she won't put the effort into anything that won't benefit her directly. She went to school in her early 30's for a degree in nursing. We lived off my salary. Did incredible - 3.9 GPA. I was so proud of her. But this was something she always wanted, so she worked hard at it. That's the only thing in 26 years that I saw her put any serious effort into.

She'll also have an interest in something, then drop it later. This past spring she was set on us getting a Harley. She thought it would be so cool. I liked the idea, but I knew that it was something we would have to work towards as a goal ($$). I think deep down she knew this, and eventually her desire for a Harley went away (I think around the same time OM came into the picture). And no, I'm almost 99.9% sure that OM does not own a Harley.

Why did I bring this up? I guess just to give you more background on my WW.

Your W sounds a lot like mine. We met when I was 20 and she was 18. The first place she lived after her mother's home was mine. She never had to work nor did she really want to. I offered her to go to school and she declined. She would never put any effort into reading marriage help material. When I first came to this site in 2001, I could not get her to read any of it with me. She said she hated reading, but she would always read about the actors lives and gossip.

When she finally got a job this past April, it took a whole 3 months for an affair to start up. Now she has this independence of not having to be responsible to a husband and children anymore. Her mom and her never had a good relationship so her mom's anger toward her didn't last. Instead, she saw it as an opportunity to get closer to her.

My W has no idea what it means to be financially responsible. I took care of the bills and budget. She even tried to blame me and then recanted because she knew that I gave her the opportunity to manage the money and she failed. She is failing still.

My W did manage our money years ago. Her method consisted of balancing the checkbook over the phone (this was before the days of online banking). This worked very well in the sense that she knew where all the money was going because the most I would do is ask if I could pull $20 out of the ATM. Everything else went through her.

I don't recall the reason why I took over bills again, I think her schooling was taking up more of her time, but I do everything in Quicken, and am a little more organized. Problem was, now it was both of us spending money. She would never come to me to ask if she could grab a 20, or this, or that. I knew what was in the checking account, but she never really did, nor would she ask. She wasn't a frivolous spender at all, but little things do add up if you're not on the same page.

I met my wife when she was 18 and I was 22. We didn't start dating until she was 19. She had moved across state after high school to live with her cousin and that's when we met - I knew her cousin's husband. She had dated several guys before we met, but I think [now] she believes she missed out on dating more back in her younger years. We dated for over 3 years before we got married. We hung out and partied [pre-marriage] like there was no tomorrow. We lived in the Twin Cities at that time, so there was plenty of things to do and see. We did a lot together.
She did mention back before she moved out that she felt she got married too young. Like I wasn't? Standard fog-babble from what people tell me. Plus, we were to get married the same year that her brother was. Not wanting to put her parents under too much of a financial bind, So we waited on our wedding for at least another year or so. Evidently she didn't think she was too young then, otherwise she would have had time to back out during this time.

It was roughly 4 years after being married that we had DS. After marrying and before DS, we still went out with friends and partied. After DS was born, we both went into parent mode. Focusing on our family. Three years later, DD was born. So for the next 17 years, we were in family mode. We still cared for and loved each other, but I can see now where the kids took precedence for the most part. She had another cousin that would always travel with his wife and leave their kids with grandma. My wife and I both agreed that we couldn't understand how they could be away from their kids so much. We both had those same values. Well, now I see that although her cousin *may* have been away from their kids excessively, we also should have taken more US time away from our kids. More date nights, trips alone. I didn't realize the importance of that then (and I question whether she did as well, else I would have heard about it more), but we were both new at parenting and felt family was first. After all, the kids would be grown up and gone someday.

Well, darn it, about the time the kids are old enough, more independent, and we can have more US time together, she decides to go off and do this! We did get a good amount of US time in last year, but for some reason, she didn't want to continue it.

You share the same thoughts as I do. The kids are on autopilot and now she runs off with someone else. It sucks to say the least. My W and I didn't spend enough time alone. I tried to get her to do things with me, but she was always worried about the kids. I know how you feel.

I'm in the middle of GJM's thread and the discussion is on his W's ENs. Conversation is identified as one of the two top ENs for women.

I'm trying to think of good ways to initiate conversation with my WW, seeing as we're separated.

I was proactive and just now texted my WW to let her know I was picking DD and her friend up after school. Then verified if DD was staying with her tonight.

Is this a form of effective conversation in Plan A? I feel so stupid asking this. I should know what constitutes good conversation with my wife, but it seems I just don't know anymore now that she's a WW.

GJM - too bad we don't live closer. It would be fun to go throw back a few beers and compare notes.

I know what you mean. It's hard to share a conversation with someone that doesn't want to include you in their life. It has been hard for me because I get short answers and no elaboration. I would text things just to let her know I'm still here. Not needy type things, but just stuff to try to get a conversation going.

Dishonesty leads to lack of communication.

Haha...agreed

Texting was always meaningful and fun between us before D-Day. After that it slowly started degrading to just a couple word replies, mainly depending on topics. Some longer, but typically the conversation stuck to the original topic. Since she moved out (this past November), the topics have pretty much just been related to the kids in some way, or perhaps financial.

However, a couple weeks ago she contacted me about picking up our DD after school. I replied back that I would, then she replied back that she was having a rough day at work, sad issue with one of their post-op patients, etc. I replied back asking questions to initiate some conversation. We texted back and forth, it all ended on a good note.

What's interesting is this was the FIRST time in quite a long time, even before moving out, that she offered up information to me without having to ask. My first thought (to myself) was why she wasn't talking to OM about this (probably did).

Her text was reminiscent of the old W, not the current WW.

So I do need some ideas from everyone on how to initiate Plan A approved conversation that is not children or financial related, and is not needy.

For most of the time over the past two months or so since she moved out, I've been in I guess what you would call a very, very light Plan B. I figured I had to do some type of silence in order for her to miss the home life, hopefully me, and the kids. I would not jump at the chance to reply back to her texts/calls right away. I wanted her to know that I wasn't just sitting around waiting to hear from her.

Throughout this whole A fiasco, my WW would have a very short fuse if I didn't reply back to her within a short period of time. Well, that seemed to really enhance when she moved out. If I didn't get back to her, then kept ignoring her repeated attempts (only for a few times), she would get pissed! One time though, she did text "Do you hate me?" when I ignored for a couple hours.

Now that I know I really should have been in Plan A post-separation, maybe that wasn't the best move. But darn it, Plan A or not, she shouldn't be so short on me getting back to her if it's not an emergency.

Some recommendations to me were to look up odd facts and talk about those. Talk about current events. It's hard to ask questions because in the wayward mind, you are fishing. You're investigating. I always text to have a good day, hope you had a good day and thinking of you....I try not to ask too much. I'll ask how work went or how she's feeling, but as you know, it is hard to get them to open up conversation. I have days where my W will talk and talk. I make sure I listen and don't interrupt. I'll smile every so often to show my interest. It's hard to do because I just want to wrap my arms around her and squeeze. I want to embrace her so bad. I have to be smooth and look confident though.

So it's ok to text them "hope you're having a good day", "how's your day going?", "how did your day go?".

I don't know how she would react to me saying "thinking of you". A week ago, after all of us getting together for DD's birthday, I texted her "Just wanted to say.....you looked absolutely stunning tonight" she replied "Stop....but thanks..."

So she acts like she doesn't want me to say anything that might imply any kind of affection (and maybe not), but then to thank me for the compliment?

Well, you can see why I'm gun shy about initiating too much conversation. When she does come over to visit the kids (maybe once/twice week, we have normal conversations, but never about us or the M.

One thing I keep getting 2x4d about is that I keep forgetting that I am not to have expectations. Yes it's ok to text small things. She may not say anything you want to hear, but she's listening to your words. She just won't tell you anything. I text my W at least 3 times a day. I see her every day. We eat together, go places, spend time with the kids, but she is STUBBORN! She won't come back. I'm gearing up for Plan B soon.

Now that is where our sitch is different. We'll only exchange texts if it's to do with the kids, or on occasion she will try to start a text war or get under my skin on something I did with her brothers. She will come over and visit with the kids for a half hour or so, maybe once or twice a week and she will most always have left before I get home. If it's on a weekend when she stops by to pick or DD, or perhaps visit with the kids, we will have normal conversation about things, but so far never about the M.

The big difference is my WW is still in an active A with the POSOM. At least from what I can tell she is. I have no positive proof other than what I've heard through the grapevine (source was the MIL, which is iffy at best cause she historically gets the facts mixed up) and active texting to OM phone.

I haven't finished reading your story yet (only on pg 72), but I did jump ahead to today and see that your W accepted your invitation to dinner for Valentine's Day. I wouldn't even think about asking my WW, she would probably laugh at me and say "you don't get it do you?"

So since I haven't caught up on your story, I may be a bit premature saying this, but at least your W has much more interaction with you than mine does. I think that speaks volumes - in your favor.

I think I need to begin testing the water more with some sporadic texts to WW. Nothing mushy or needy, just some things about the kids, work, current events, etc. With maybe a how was your day thrown in there for flavor.

I mean, it can't hurt. If it's not frequent, it might slowly open the door to further communication. Melody did say I needed to work on conversation - that it may have the potential to lead to other things.

From November 18th til December 18th things were very confrontational. She told me a lot of the things your W says to you and we never talk about the M. I stayed persistent as I do now. My W thinks I'm a stalker or weirdo because I won't go away. Whenever she has something negative to say, I don't argue. I just say I'm fighting for our marriage. That's my answer for everything.

If she tells you that you just don't get it, I would respond with, no you just don't get how much our marriage and family means to me. Whatever fire she spits out, just extinguish it with silence or that same line that I use. I guarantee my W will wear out before me.

Now that is ironic in that November 18th is when my W left for her apartment. Things were quiet with little confrontation until around December 19th (are our wives in communication with each other?). On that day she blew up out of the blue at both of her brothers on the phone (separately). One BIL contacted me right away and I was able to avoid answering the phone when WW called me at work. I ignored her all that day and into the next. I had found out from BIL's what she had said to them. My WW tried calling me 22 times (MIL tried twice) and I got about 6 of the worst voicemails on my droid - they would peel the paint off a wall! And I never did anything!

She initiated all this towards her brothers and she tried pulling me in. I believe it all stemmed from the fact that one BIL was having Christmas at his house, and he invited me. She was livid because I was going to HER family Christmas. And I think what compounded the problem was no one on MY side of the family invited her. Which was probably just as well because her health would have been at stake had she interacted with my family.

It was during this time that I began to question whether she was having issues with OM. But it doesn't appear to be that way, though to this day I still have no idea what the true status of their A is.