I've never been a morning person, NG. It would be a real show of love to get up early to make breakfast! LOL (My Taker would be screaming!!!)

But yes - all the small details are what really counts.

Had some UA time with H last night. I talked to him while we were at dinner about some of what I've been reading here the last few days. I realized we've been too much negotiating and not enough POJA-ing. I read someone's example (might have been Melody's) about the Chinese vs. Mexican restaurant and compromising by going to each to satisfy each spouse. Compromise is NOT the goal - one person is then unhappy each of those evenings.

When I discussed this with H, he said, "But then you never get to eat Chinese or Mexican." To which I replied, "Of course you do: you just do it at lunch with your (MALE) co-workers and me with my (FEMALE) friends!"

I hadn't realized we'd fallen into this pattern. Thankfully not majorly so - but I don't want to creep back into old behaviors.

Sent him the article today that I found on a thread by Pep regarding buyers/renters and solving conflicts. I was disappointed that he didn't respond at all to it. I wanted him to be as excited about it as I was! But...we can talk about it later tonight.

Sometimes I feel like H thinks we don't need to do anymore reading/learning about recovery concepts - that we have enough. I don't seem to feel enough is ever enough. I want him to feel the way I do - which I know is a DJ.

Just some thoughts of the afternoon.

DJ, sister!

See how easily it can cause withdrawals? Because you had an expectation as to how your husband should have reacted, a withdrawal was made without his consent or knowledge!

(It goes both ways, sis)


It's also the risk we take when we do these things - taking articles to our spouses - that they take it as a DJ when we try to educate them. Yannow?

YEAH, YEAH....I KNOW!!!!!!
(pouts)

I don't send him a ton of stuff but I did send that since we were discussing this last night.

Hey - at least I'm aware I committed a DJ!!! That's progress, for me.

The good news is - the LB withdrawal was just taken out on "hold" and not actually withdrawn - since I recognized it. You know, kinda like a credit card hold that is then released. LOL

Thanks for calling me on it. Even though I *knew* it, I needed someone to confirm it!

Oh, I can't harsh you too much. I share a lot of stuff w/ NGB. I link stuff in texts when I'm at work and stuff.

I think sometimes it confuses her, because she will ask about it; "Do you think we do/don't 'x?'"

No, dear, I just liked the read and thought I'd share it with you.

O_o

I prefaced my email by saying I didn't think we were having an issue, but could learn from the principles.

I think it's just hard as a FBS. You think, "Dang...I'm not the one who was unfaithful, shouldn't my dear spouse be taking MORE interest in this stuff than ME?"

But yeah - I know - another DJ.
LOL

"Dang...I'm not the one who was unfaithful, shouldn't my dear spouse be taking MORE interest in this stuff than ME?"

Yep, but two things are working here:

1) You actually "arrived" here claiming (as your title maintains) to be in recovery. You missed the opportunity to include his working through the principles on this site as part of your required "just compensation".
2) You evidently present yourself as one of the rare female creatures unskilled in somehow convincing your spouse to undertake an effort he might originally find unattractive.

Not being married to a woman so...wile-less...I can't offer much in the way of guidance. Perhaps one of our female correspondants can step in.....

Well, I didn't first arrive here "recovered" but made a thread in Recovery upon request. I didn't post for a long time. (I have a thread buried in Surviving an Affair, somewhere.)

No, I didn't make Mr. Sunny being on the forums a stipulation of recovery. That's because most of the recovery actions took place while I was not on here myself. It doesn't make sense at this point to require him to be on here. The most important thing is that he is following all the MB principles - which he is. (We have the at-home program.)

Now: as far as being wile-less, I probably have more wile than appears. I just don't choose to operate that way. My family history is such: I have AWESOME men in my life! My dad, my brother, my uncle who died 2 years ago - and my grandfather who died about a year ago - all incredible men of honor, integrity, and second-to-none work ethic. I once stated that these men are the "Mt. Rushmore" men to me and I still mean it. I respect them all greatly.

I do NOT have awesome women in my life, with the exception of being my Sister-in-law. I watched my mother, my aunt, and my grandfather nag, hen-peck, criticize, and control my dad, uncle, and grandfather all my life. They are shallow, controlling, and self-centered women.

Now: as an adult, I've come to realize that the fact that my dad, uncle, and grandfather put up with it is their own fault. It took my a number of years to understand they were not "victims" but that's another story.

Lets just say that after growing up with women I could not stand who treated the men I loved so terribly, I swore I would never be like that, in any way!

Did I go too far the other way? Well - the obvious answer would be yes - or else I would not be here, having suffered from infidelity.

However, I don't think it's healthy to "wile" my way into "making" my husband do things now - ya know? Of course, that may depend on the definition of "wiling," lol. I know that using one's wiles is not the same as nagging, etc... It's just that blatant manipulation in any form is unappealing to me.

H reads the books, does the questionnaires, and all the other important stuff. I've never felt he needed to come on here in order for us to recover - but part of me wishes now we'd have been on the forum during recovery, sure: hindsight is 20/20.

Having said all of that - part of what got H drawn into the affair was the computer. He found OW on Facebook. He got into inappropriate conversations with her (and other women) by going off into sites and socializing - chatting with other women. He strictly uses the computer now for work and to check sports stuff. Naturally, I wouldn't care if he came here, to Marriage Builders, but it's better for the most part that he only uses the computer as he currently does.

Anyway, if I asked him to come here he might not really want to, but I think he would do it. However, if it isn't POJA'd - he shouldn't do it.

H reads the books, does the questionnaires, and all the other important stuff. I've never felt he needed to come on here in order for us to recover... Naturally, I wouldn't care if he came here, to Marriage Builders...Anyway, if I asked him to come here he might not really want to, but I think he would do it.

Well, if, as you say, FWH "gets it" , and materially "does it", he and you are doing better than 90% of the other couples here. So the reason you want him more active on this site is....? Recreational companionship?

Instead of urging him to become a participant here (since he evidently has decided that's not for him), you might try selectively using the "Send" feature on postings of import, with a note attached asking him to consider the enclosed contents and giving you his thoughts on the matter. Invite him to interact with the content of the site more privately than by joining the debates. This would have the added bonus of being "open-ended" in the approach, giving him free rein to possibly "create", and not just "respond".

I'd like your thoughts on this idea.

I don't necessarily want/need H to be more active on the site here. My thoughts were more that it would be great if HE were the one wanting to delve more deeply into marriage related topics: how best to make our relationship great, etc... (Well, when I put it that way, I guess that equates to being more active here, in a sense.) So, no: it isn't for recreational companionship.

Mr. Sunny DOES do the work and he does get the basic principles. However, I still think he views me as "the relationship person" and he just does whatever I ask him to do. Instead of researching things for himself or whatever, he just wants me to tell him what it is he needs to do - then, he's willing to do it. It's great that he's willing. It would be better if he were the one trying to understand further. But... typically it is women who are the relationship gate keepers. Most men on here have landed in this place because they were victims of infidelity. Being such, they are looking for a way to ease the pain, reach out to others, etc...

There ARE a few that are here that are previous WS's, it's true - but not a lot. I wish there were more - their insight and wisdom are invaluable! My guess would be that they have a more innate personality that lends itself to being on a place such as this. However, maybe it's just the higher level of responsibility they took for their infidelity that compelled them to be here, I don't know.

In my case, H hasn't made a decision against being here - it just really hasn't come up. As I said, he is on the computer during working hours, for work, and that's basically it. It hasn't come up that he should be here, as such. He has very little down time while at the office and when he gets home, he doesn't usually crack open a computer unless he and I are on together - and that's very little. It wouldn't be how I would chose to spend our UA time.

BUT...having said all that - I do really like your idea. I've never even used the "Send" feature here. I have sent him articles from time to time obviously, as that's what started this whole conversation.

You do raise a valid point, STID, and one that, I believe, most FWSs do not quite understand, at least initially.

The BS, after the shock of d-day, has every right to declare the marriage contract broken and void. The fact that they do not do so is a gift of incalculable value to the FWS. Too often, it seems sadly, after the initial flash of gratitude dims, the FWS is content to resume normal (read: non-strenuous) maintenance of the marital state. The implicit algebra seems to be "Well FBS refrained from ditching me, and I, for my part, gave up AP, so it is more-or-less equivalent, right?"

That is so WRONG as to approach the OBSCENE. By virtue(?) of having damaged the marital union as egregiously as is possible, the FWS owes the marriage outsized and ongoing efforts to build a union the shadow of which completely buries the remnants of the damaged one. "Normal" is in no way adequate, nor sufficient. "Exemplary" and "extraordinary" must be the adjectives ascribed to the FWS's new initiatives in EN-supply and marital strengthening.

The FWSs that internalize that concept are the ones whose FBSs soon start referring to how magnificently better their "new" marriages are than before their d-days. I was blessed with such a partner. In time, perhaps all FBSs will be.

If you WERE going to "send" a post to your hubby, the one above might be a good candidate.

It would be a GREAT candidate as it is a GREAT post! I think I will! In fact, every FWS should read it.

I feel my H is on his way there: he has used the words "extraordinary" to describe the kind of marriage he wants us to have. I'm sure he thinks he is doing plenty to get us there, by all he's done in the MB program. AND, I have to give him the credit he's due: he has proved he gets the fact that he needed to go beyond just "normal" to rectify things. I am not so sure that he's gone as far as internalizing it - at least not yet. I'd like him to be able to take that next step towards that.

I just had a realization that my thoughts about wanting H to delve more deeply into marital rebuilding is probably due to the trigger I have had this week.

OW is from a different state - nowhere close to here; and from a city that is not a usual place to be from.

Wouldn't you know it that our daughter (who is away at college) has a new boyfriend who happens to be from same city/state as OW! It is very unusual that someone from there would be going to the college my daughter attends - and certainly not a coincidence I welcome.

Well...D20's new boyfriend bought her a ticket to go with him for the weekend to meet his family. When she told me this the other night, I triggered big time, of course. For me, the place is a HUGE trigger because H had to go out of his way to plan his trips there to see SkankHO. It wasn't like he was there on business and it just happened. It makes it worse somehow. As an added bonus, DD20 has the same flight scenario H had on his trips - with a layover at another city. So, she is visiting the same city/state in the same exact manner in which FWH went to meet up to have sex with OW.

As I've learned, we are not supposed to say to our spouses that we are triggering. In this case, I had to tell H that DD was going. There's no way it would be OK to withhold that kind of info from him - that his daughter was traveling with her new boyfriend by plane, and what their destination was. Needless to say, this was not a fun discussion. I worried that telling him would bring back memories - fond memories for him, probably - of the place and of SkankHO. Those thoughts for me were worse than the trigger of having the reminder of him going.

I did not mention this fact to H; I tried very hard to not bring the past into the present. Of course, he knows the place brings up bad memories...so...we dealt with it the best we could.

Anyway...back to the cause/effect: I think my triggering brought up some less than stellar thoughts - the kind that creep in when you are feeling angry/sad. Things like, "I bet he still thinks he was justified in what he did," or "He thinks I should just get over it and move on - easy for him, not for me!" Even worse, thoughts of wanting him to pay even flashed in my mind.

I didn't share all of this earlier this week because I wanted the trigger to just be GONE. Well, now I see that the trigger and the thoughts that arose from it oozed their way into my wanting him to step up his game in terms of learning about good marital practices. Maybe if he did so, I would feel more like he paid his dues - I don't know.

It all comes back to the fact that what was done can't be undone. Nothing our FWS's do can make up for what they did. Oh, there is compensation of sorts under the MB plan, but nothing makes up for it. The best we can do is to keep on focusing on the future.

Dr. Harley's advice actually is "never bring up the affair again" because you don't want to bring the past into your present. So it's totally OK to say, "Honey, I'm really struggling with my emotions today. I could use your help and support." Or to share that you are unenthusiastic about something without elaborating.

Radical Honesty requires that you share how you are feeling, but avoiding the Enemies of Good Conversation is tough sometimes, huh?

Infidelity: the gift that keeps on....sucking!

Short of pulling a "Dr. Strangelove" on this city, or convincing you daughter's boyfriend's family to move away from this unnamed den of iniquity, I would think this is one for which you're just going to have to "woman up" and pull through!

That said, however, this might be another note to send to your less-than-proactive husband. Hang on a minute, I have to gather my thoughts for the precise phrasing I'd like to have him read. Okay, I've got it:


HEY! BUTT-HEAD! DO YOUR PART TO
MAKE THIS EASY ON YOUR WIFE!
YOU BROKE IT! YOU MEND IT!


Unless he's been semi-conscious for the entire period of your D20's courship, he had a duty to be all over this situation like stink on [censored]! The moment he realized that "Sodom" was going to be part of D20's life, he had to have realized he was obligated to convince you it was no longer part of his life, and the part of his life it had been was as anathema to him as it obviously was to you.

I need not tell you that this is on of those issues were best raised in the immediate aftermath of discovery. The problems (for you) are real, and should be resolved. Your being noble and bearing up without complaint is a form of "sacrifice" and that's NOT the recipe for an ideal union.

The issue you would raise with him is not revealing a "trigger" of his affair, but your disappointment in the duty of care he did not demonstrate with the sad geographic coincidence. That is "today" problem, not a "yesterday" issue.

Yeah - it can be a tough line! We're not supposed to bring up the affair or the trigger (specifically) but it had to be done in this case. H would know automatically once I told him where DD20 was going that it was rough on me.

Learning how to share radically and honestly without lovebusting is something we will probably always be trying to get better at, that's for sure!

Thanks, NG!!! You made me laugh as well as feel supported - AND gave me something good to share with H!

I should explain though: H did not know DD20's beau was from "Sodom" until I told him this week. SO...that's somewhat on me, not him. I didn't know either until after Christmas, when DD told me. They actually haven't been dating all that long. She's going to Sodom so she can spend time with him and meet his family before he leaves to go work overseas for a year. (If that was not happening, I don't think there would have been a big rush to go to Sodom at the moment.)

Of course, the reason D20 didn't mention it for awhile is because A: She knew what that place means and B: why bring it up unless she was serious about the guy.

Hopefully, with him going away for a year, they won't remain an item long-term and I won't have to deal with Sodom forever! I haven't met the guy yet - so I can't judge whether or not I would want her to remain with him or not. Based on her age, I would say no! However, he will be back to visit every few months. The bad part of this aspect of it all is that he's leaving after just a few short months into the relationship - you know - when no one has any faults and you're both all giddy about each other.

So...H is off the hook in terms of not being more proactive about making me feel better about the den of iniquity earlier. Where he is not off the hook is in how he initially reacted to my telling him. At first it was one of those, "let me see if can deflect this on to something else," things. He thought that my not particularly wanting DD to go was part of the problem; it wasn't. Then pride got in the way and he brought up triggers HE has of my past lovebusters. Then, he
felt I should just be able to put it out of my mind - that I was only causing myself grief.

Yeah: as you can imagine, none of that was met with a good reception on my part. Finally, after going through the prideful reactions of being defensive, he said how sorry he was that I was suffering - that he will always be here for me - and that he wished it had never happened.

It took awhile to get to that point. THAT, I don't like. It makes me feel that he still doesn't fully get it. And I don't think a betrayed spouse ever fully heals until an unfaithful spouse FULLY gets it.

You made me laugh
as well as feel supported and
gave me something good to share with H!

NeverGuessed: Triple Crown Winner!

LOL!!!!
Yep: gotta love the triple crown!!!! And you know, that's a title you can never have taken away from you. I guess you'll have to put "Winner of the Triple Crown" before your name now. You know - like Oscar winners. "Winner of the Triple Crown, Never Guessed says..."

I woke up this morning wondering if the whole Sodom situation was put in my path for a specific purpose... to work through underlying stuff. I don't know. Still pondering that!

Hey Sunny!

Just checking in. Gah! What a bummer about DD20's beau's hometown. (My godson is currently attending college in POSOW's hometown, so I know the feeling. Thankfully, it doesn't come up often.

I hate to say it, but NG's approach is right, in terms of the BIG RED TYPE treatment for your hubby. Had to do the same for mine on the issue of him not doing enough to contact me during specifc times that I need a smidge of support (when I have to work late or if he's at a biz function). I didn't love bust, but after the proverbial "straw" time when he didn't make contact while I was at work (he was home w/kids), I told him unequivicably that he had failed and failed miserably. That he had nearly drained my lovebank, which had been pretty full, because he does so many other wonderful things. And not only had it drained my bank, but it prompted me to spiral into "affairland" again, where all the bad thoughts came flooding back. So, he could continue to ignore one of my most basic needs and see the results, or he could FINALLY HOLD UP HIS END OF THE BARGAIN!!!!!

He finally got it. The last two times we were apart, he made sure to be the FIRST one to make contact, either by text, email or phone. Those deposits REALLy paid off for him ... if you know what i mean.

Cheers,
SP