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You're making some very BIG mistakes.
If you want my advice, say so.
If you fully intend to continue on your path, say so.
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Daisy, please answer this question for me. I've put effort into helping you, and I would like you to answer one thing.
Did you ever listen to my advice to GPS WH's vehicle?
Yes or no?
Edit to add:
Here is why.
You said you cannot afford a PI.
Well, if you knew where WH went on a regular basis (from the GPS) you could have someone you trust to take photos of WH together with OW.
You might even get lucky and find out what car OW drives and have her followed.
Once you know who OW is, you have immensely increased your chances of KILLING the affair.
You expose the affair to OW's husband, I guarantee your WH will not be so enamored of her.
Until you know 100% for certain who she is, you will NOT have a recovered marriage. The day I was going to go get one is the day he confessed.
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yuck.
I would never ever ever chase after an unrepentant wayward husband who expects ME to apologize for MY behavior, while he considers whether or not to leave.
yuck.
If my husband cheated on me -- he would have to be apologizing to ME for HIS bad behavior, and I would have a list of requirements he would have to fulfill before I would consider ALLOWING him to stay married to me.
Why do you value yourself so little?
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yuck.
I would never ever ever chase after an unrepentant wayward husband who expects ME to apologize for MY behavior, while he considers whether or not to leave.
yuck.
If my husband cheated on me -- he would have to be apologizing to ME for HIS bad behavior, and I would have a list of requirements he would have to fulfill before I would consider ALLOWING him to stay married to me.
Why do you value yourself so little? Very difficult to hear, but I understand. I tried pulling the confession out of him. He knew I KNEW in my gut but was going on this merry way until, well, I don't know. He eventually came to me asking to start out fresh but I persisted about the A. Finally the next day is when he confessed. The problem is that he blames ME for the A. I understand his feelings but give no excuse for the A! I'm trying to be sensitive because that is the only way I even got a confession out of him. He had (has) feelings for the OW, if I turn out to be a pain in the the a--, he will head for the hills. I'm asking for advice on the best way to move forward, in my situation. I know that things didn't go in the order that they were suppose to that's why I'm confused and scared. I have his interest now and don't want to lose it again. I see it as an avenue for improvements.
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He had (has) feelings for the OW, if I turn out to be a pain in the the a--, he will head for the hills. My H had deep feelings of love for OW. The day we (did you read this? I said "we") exposed the affair to OWH is the day the affair was killed. Your fear-based plan will backfire. You will be married to an unrepentant man. A man who learned he can commit adultery and you will accept his choices as your fault.  Have you read the false recovery thread?
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*** LINK *** To false recovery thread <~~~ Where YOU are headed.A false recovery makes real recovery all that much harder. Do not be weak. Be smart.
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MB poster JustKim asked Dr Harley about the PRIMARY reason waywards choose adultery. YOU need to understand this is NOT because you missed some of WH's ENs. Here is the link to Notable Post Here is the quote: [quote:JustKim] Ive read so many posts detailing how hard it is to recover. I myself feel the same. My M is so much better than it ever was, my H tries very hard and I have so much to be thankful for. Ive asked myself so many times why I would still be struggling so badly. Yesterday, I had my first session w Steve Harley. He explained it to me this way"As long as you believe that your H had an affair because his emotional needs were not being met (as a *primary* reason) you will be meeting his emotional needs out of fear, there will always be a gun held to your head. Your H had an affair because he failed to protect HIMSELF from his own vulnerabilities, period. He is accountable and responsible for all" He then went on to explain that perhaps my H has been telling me that "it wont happen again, that I am safe, etc..." BUT that it will likely have little reassuring effect because he is saying things that I believed were *always true*. He said that until my H proves to me that HE gets it, that HE takes responsibility fully for what happened ( the A, not the downslide of our marriage) that you cannot heal. I wonder how many of us BS that are struggling have spouses that have come to us and said "I did this to you. I failed us. I failed to protect the safety of our M. I will keep us safe from now on, you no longer have to be the gatekeeper." I wonder if they did, how many of us would still be struggling? Steve likens this emotional injury to a horrific car crash. If we had visible physical wounds that mirrored the emotional trauma we have sustained there would be a plan to heal. First, you do A. then B. then C. and so on. If our spouses are unable to do these things, we will not heal properly and at best, will limp along for the rest of our time here on Earth. ___ "As long as you believe that your H had an affair because his emotional needs were not being met (as a *primary* reason) you will be meeting his emotional needs out of fear, there will always be a gun held to your head. Your H had an affair because he failed to protect HIMSELF from his own vulnerabilities, period. He is accountable and responsible for all"
Last edited by Pepperband; 02/06/12 01:22 PM.
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The day I was going to go get one is the day he confessed. You still need to verify his whereabouts even if you both embark on a great recovery! It is not just a relationship - affairs are ADDICTIONS that can restart at any time. You need to know what is going on. GPS is a good investment, cheaper than a PI and a hell of a lot cheaper than a divorce. however, i'm very nervous to be demanding right now. I know he developed feelings for the OW. He told me that he was ready for divorce if I hadn't apologized for not meeting his needs. I had always blamed him for my ill feelings toward him but after learning about MB, i realized that I wasn't meeting his needs. . Thats not MB at ALL! People have affairs due to poor boundaries - no other reason. What if you were in hospital with a serious illness and unable to meet needs? C'mon. It is CRAZY to feel SHY about demanding your husband be an um, HUSBAND! He has been cheating on you! Show some steel! Doormats are not attractive. He told me that it didn't matter if he changed his number because he could give her his new number anyway, if he wanted to. . He has just asked for your permission to re-start his affair - and you said yes. Why did he ask for your permission? Because he wants BOTH of you. This confession is not about choosing you - it is about lining you up to be cheated on repeatedly. He has even told you that if it 'feels good' it doenst matter if its 'wrong' I feel like I'm taking baby steps right now because I know that he does not want to be made a prisoner and I don't want to scare him back into her arms.. Right, thats what got him there. Fear of you. Not the rush of having two women. Nooooooo. Wake up? He told me that he has made the decision to stay with me and that i need to give him some space to deal with what he's done (my interpretation is that he's sad to let her go).
. No he told you what he wants space for when he told you he was going to start up with OW again. He wants you both. He wants to stay but have space to cheat. I feel like everything is so raw right now and I don't want to be a tyrant by making demands. Youre in good company. There are lots of tyrants on here who demand their husbands stay faithful. We are terrible monsters. Grrrrrrrr I explained to him that if he'd rather pursue a life with her instead of me, then we need to do it the right way and get a divorce. . Have you read Plan A? 'Adultery must be stood up to and slayed as a beast for the good of the family' Not only is supporting his choice to be with his ho MORALLY WRONG but it looks like you dont give a crap about him! I can just hear him repeating your blessing of the new relationship to OW. I bet he LEAPT on this enabling. My goal right now is to make him WANT me and forget about the OW.
I'd really like him to come to me and say "here's my passwords, here's what happened, who she is, etc"
But he hasn't and I feel like i'm constantly bothering him.
The last thing i want is to push him away. He DOES want you. Your plan A has worked. But he wants OW on the side as well. And you have given your blessing to this deal! The oldest wayard rick in the book is to act 'annoyed' and 'afraid' and downright annoying. It is CALCULATED to get you into a position where you are afraid of losing him, so you back off, and let him do whatever the hell he wants. He doenst even intend to stop seeing her. He thinks he has a perfect doormat set up at home. Either 1) Get the GPS and see how poorly he does at staying away from her while you are willing to enable. or 2) Get the GPS and insist he meet your terms, NC letter, radical honesty and full transparency - if not tell him he will end up in a nasty divorce and you will not be friends afterwards You are NOT to blame. You had NOTHING to do with this affair. YOu did not give your permission -dont be tricked into doing it now just because he wants you to enable.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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Daisy,
PLEASE listen to Pepperband.
Starting fresh for Waywards mean either sweeping the A under the rug and/or taking it underground.
You do not want any of those!
I know it is hard, I am there with you. Read the false recovery thread. You will see yourself and your WH there!
It is time to be strong or you will pay the price later.
BS (me) 46
STBX WH 53
Married 2000
DS, 11; DS, 10
1st A: LT D-Day - 02/14/06
2nd A: D-Day - 12/21/11
Plan B since 1/17/12
Divorcing
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The problem is that he blames ME for the A. ALL WAYWARDS DO!!!!!!!!! It is a CONTROL tactic. He is getting you into a corner where you are too afraid to act and it is WORKING.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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The day I was going to go get one is the day he confessed. WH did not tell you everything. Important (vital) details such as OW's name. That's not a real confession. What WH did was throw you some chum in the hope that chum (fish scraps) will be enough to keep you around while he continues to see OW in secret. chum
noun
chopped fish, fish fluids, and other material thrown overboard as angling bait.
� refuse from fish, esp. that remaining after expressing oil.
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daisy
You allowing him to blame you for his A will only lead to FURTHER affairs. Simple as that. It's like your saying "every time we have marriage problems feel free to go cheat and blame me and I will forgive you out of fear of loosing you"
This really isn't healthy, he is a big boy and does not need you to mollycoddle or justify his bad behaviour.
I have a very strong feeling that you are being GASLIGHTED, his affair is not over he just knew you suspected something and is in damage control mode.
You have told him and shown him what you are willing to change and do should he end his affair now it's time to set the bar high not low. No good decisions happen when you are acting out of fear.
I would sit him down explain that you are grateful he is willing to work on the marriage and that you will continue to improve on your faults as long as he shows you that he is trustworthy and committed in actions not just words by
1) Writing a NC letter
2) answering your questions and doing the timeline
3) owns his mistakes ans stops blaming you for his behaviour
4) is willing to be completely transparent IMMEDIATELY by giving you all his passwords and being accountable for his whereabouts.
Is the OW married? Is she a work colleague? You need to know this information as soon as possible so you can expose her and ensure that there won't be a repeat affair.
Recovery is hard and there will be times when you or him will want to bail but by you letting him get away with not giving you any information your leaving the door open for hi. To run to her whenever things get tough and I guarantee you things will get tough at some point so why are you taking this risk?
BW 36(Me)
WS 38
Married: 2000
DD1November 22 2008 - DD2 October 2014
PA Duration September 08 - November 08
Second discovery- 6 online affairs 4 sexual one emotional. October 2014.kids: DS 17, DS 14, DS 12, DS 10 . Baby after divorce DS 18months
Divorced
Was misled into thinking we were in recovery for 6 years.
If you were shocked reading any of this, that this is the consequence of not following MB to the LETTER.
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Daisy, your WH is working off this script. LINK to MB thread for Lurking waywards Read this a few times. It's scary accurate.
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I particularly like chapter 11, the Art of Clinging to the Edge of the Mattress
They never fail to do that one do they in an attempt to make you feel like a monster! Must. Not. Touch. BS. Must. Make. Them. Feel. Unloved. And. Desperate.
So I can cake-eat
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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Who gave this book to my WH?
BS (me) 46
STBX WH 53
Married 2000
DS, 11; DS, 10
1st A: LT D-Day - 02/14/06
2nd A: D-Day - 12/21/11
Plan B since 1/17/12
Divorcing
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Theres some sort of underground wayward club, the first rule of which is to 'you do not talk about underground wayward club' I would guess.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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Daisy,
I know you are scared and you are afraid to set the bar high this time, it is not your fault he had an affair,that was his choice you had nothing to do with that, he is blameshifting to justify his affair................
read the link pepper has left you titled Deception/Hardening/Destruction.
and all the others.........waywards have to change their morals in order to live their affair lives otherwise they would be torn apart with guilt, they have to make you look like the bad person in order to relieve themselves of any responsibility they had to you and the marriage........your husband is not thinking straight and that will not happen until he is no longer in contact with the OW and he has a chance to go through withdrawal, as long as there is any contact and that can mean as little as seeing her name in print there will be no recovery for you two. he will not get his logic thinking back.
You have to snoop further, not trust him and figure out exactly what you are dealing with, you speak your boundaries in order for you to stay with a man that cheated, you did nothing wrong he doesn't get to call the shots here........
At this point because he is fogged out he may leave, let him, let the affair woman fill all his needs, watch it fall apart, they haven't lived any real life, just a fantasy world full of happy moments none of the real life issues we all deal with every day.........watch how quickly they are at each other's throats........
In the meantime be the woman he married, conduct yourself with confidence, don't be needy, respect yourself.........be cheerful and understanding....You make him chose one life .............nothing else will work........
keep snooping and be a great wife and then come back and the vets will walk you through the plan.......a good plan wins the war, don't let that other woman take your life, you have to fight for it, and just sweeping it under the rug will not work.........
You are getting help from the best here, please sit up and listen......I know you are scared.........even if he walks out for now, let him he will be back, when he has the weight of all of it on his shoulders he will do the right thing.......don't be afraid.....
you have no idea what strength a long term relationship and a history have, you have more than you know.......
if he argues about what you are trying to ask for just keep saying I will do what ever I have to save my marriage and us...........over and over again........telll him the affair has changed the marriage more then any other time and it will take extra ordinary precautions and agreements to save the marriage this time. If he doesn't want to tell him he is free to go, then you start separating your financials, go see a lawyer see what rights you have............give him the impression you are moving on if he doesn't get on board with the recovery plan, if you can get him to counsel with the Harley's here that would be awsome.....they are the best.............
Listen girl, to us not to him.........
we all were reluctant and afraid to stand up for what is right for us..........
My husband kept saying our marriage was over, he didn't love me because of me and that he loved his OW I thought my marriage was over, but I showed him how much I would fight for us and how I could change my part in the marriage but I also showed him I wouldn't put up with him still having his OW in his life in any way that he would have to show me he wanted me and the marriage....it took 8 months but he is the best husband I could ever have now........you can get there too...........
listen to the best you have landed in a place that can save your marriage. don't waste precious time......he is confused but not that confused......he knows what he is putting on the line.......
BW 56
WH 57
Married 25 years, live together for 2, dated 2 years before that.....
DS 23, DS 25
D-Day Nov 23/09
NC Mar 1/10
Working on Recovery
Grateful for finding Marriage Builders
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From the NEVER take the word of a wayward thread. Trusting a formerly good person goes out of the window when they become addicts however. Found this on another site, something I have found helpful in understanding WH's behaviour is not about me, it is ALL about him... Helps with seeing the wayward's behaviour for what it is. Replace addicts with waywards, after all, they are one and the same. 1. Addicts lie 2. Addicts make excuses for their bad behaviour 3. Addicts are NOT in control of themselves 4. Addicts want one thing - more more, and again more 5. Addicts are master manipulators - of spouses, children, even their parents 5. Addicts don't care about long term 6. Addicts don't care about logic 7. Addicts are not reliable 8. Addicts lie 9. Addicts talk ONLY for three things : a. to pursue their addiction b. to pursue their addiction c. to pursue their addiction 10. Addicts lie 11. Addicts create walls to isolate themselves from anyone that may interfere with pusuit of their addiction a. Emotional walls - I'm done, I'm divorcing you, I don't love you b. Walls of Lies, stories, excuses c. Walls of wood and brick - they shut doors, stay away from home, dissappear for hours on end 12. Addicts lie 13 Addicts use people 14. Addicts don't care if they hurt people 15. Addicts are ill 16. Addicts aren't loyal or dependable 17. Did I mention that addicts lie? 18. Addicts recover I question number 18 though... in my experience addicts do not always recover, or can take a very long time to do so... I would add "can" to this... Addicts CAN recover.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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Thank u all!
Just read the FR thread.
Indiegirl, thanks so much for your insight on my comments. It's very helpful!
The point that WH was trying to convey with the number change is that it doesn't matter what he does to remove the OW if he still wants to contact her. So there's no need to change his number, email, etc because if he WANTED to stray again he will. He's trying to say that it's an unrealistic solution to make me feel safe.
As far as the gps goes, am I suppose to tell him about it? He's suppose to agree to install one? This is where I'm confused because couldn't he just park the car somewhere and have the OW meet him and go in her car? Or turn it off somehow?
I appreciate all the advice and want to do the right thing but I need specific instructions. I don't want to put my foot in my mouth or send him sailing away because I did something wrong.
My big dilemma is that I don't think he's remorseful right now. I know I shouldn't blame myself for not meeting his EN but he's warned me for a really long time and I've taken our relationship for granted by being stubborn (because my ENs weren't being met either). Even if this A didn't happen, we were most likely headed for D.
So I feel like im in no position to be demanding. My brief plan A seemed to entice him and I want to make sure that I keep his interest. I really really needed to give him a reason to want me again. He was almost completely out the door.
But just as I'm skeptical that he will not continue or have another A, he's skeptical that I can give him what he needs.
So what do I do?
I'd like to find out WHO she is but he said I don't need to know, details only make things worse and he's hurt me enough. He wants to move on and leave the bad behind.
When I mentioned the NC letter he said he's fine with it but what does it prove? He can just go back and tell her that I made him do it (if he wanted to).
He keeps reiterating to me that he said he's done and he's DONE.
I'm open to your advice and please don't think that I'm refusing it or being difficult. I just want to make sure that I'm understood that is why I have questions.
Thank you all!
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OMG! Can I print that thread for waywards and give it to my WH?? LOL. I' sure he will recognize it. Too funny....in an awful way.
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