Did you not read my post to you?

Did your BIL call her out on her bull and lying? If not, he should.

Waywards lie to EVERYONE. Waywards aren't good spouses, parents, children, or friends.

When you invite your WW to things, even if she doesn't go, you still do it. Plan something FUN, even if it is just staying in with the kids. Have a BLAST.

LOL, I hear ya TW. You'll have to forgive me that I still find it amazing how this can happen to someone I've known for so long.

I know everyone here has experienced this. I feel for everyone on this forum. I just want to say I truly appreciate all your advice and feedback. It is most comforting.

DS just went to his friends house for the night and DD is at her friends house. So it's just me, the dog, and cat.

BIL didn't call her out on it, she was texting his wife and think he found out about it after the fact. I'll probably talk to him later and see what my SIL said to WW, if anything.

Believe me, both of my BILs have called their sister out on stuff she's said in the past months. They throw facts back at her and she has nothing to say in return, or changes the subject.

Encourage them to slam her with the truth when she lies to make herself look like she's being responsible. Extremely effective coming from your BIL and SIL for a couple of reasons:

1) She'll realize your support from HER family outweighs hers (VERY painful).
2) Hopefully getting caught in all the lies (and not getting away with them) will one day jolt her back to reality and shatter this little adolescent fantasy of hers.

Pressure and having to face reality (and her lies) is good.

And listen to Scotty

Hell, even your WW told you to do that.

Do it. Your WW was right on one thing, and I quote;

U deserve it

I'm naturally a very curious and analytical person. That is my downfall in this situation because I'm curious to understand why, therefore, I over analyze things.

Like I will now sit here and ponder why WW said she was uncomfortable to come over here. Does absolutely no good, because like Scotland and everyone else says, waywards lie, and you can't believe what they say. And as GJM suggested, I should have asked her.

For her to be uncomfortable being over here with her family must mean something. The last time she was over was for DD birthday, after we all went out to eat. WW's mother was also here for DD's birthday, so that may have been why WW was comfortable, since her mom is on her side. She may have felt that if it was just her, I, and the kids, then maybe we'd start ganging up on her about what she's doing wrong. Which I would not do, but she doesn't know that. That's why TW's suggestion to go outside the home to public location might be good. May be a good way to get her more comfortable getting together (if that's even something she's willing to do at this point).

During Plan A, you are actually going to make your WW MORE uncomfortable the better you are at it.

Her discomfort is called GUILT. She still has feelings that she wants to keep dormant.

And at the same time, YOU'LL feel more comfortable doing it and actually begin to enjoy it, because it's what you should have been doing all along. It will feel right.

Right now it's about you changing you, with no expectations, and no reciprocity.

You may think she doesn't notice (but she will), and you may feel like it's not making a difference (but it will).

Points to ponder

Everyone, thanks for your feedback. My other BIL and his wife and daughter stopped by to visit. Was busy chatting with them.

Then my son and his friends stopped by. They had bought some gallons of milk and were going to do the milk challenge. I said not at my house! So then they did the saltine cracker challenge. FAIL! Then they did the cinnamon challenge. EPIC FAIL! Of course they're doing the milk challenge at his friends house. Teenagers!

I texted a picture of the kids doing the cinnamon challenge (on the deck) to WW. She liked it and we replied back and forth a few times.

Any chance I can get to text her about non-M related things that are going on, I'm going to. I want her to realize that life is still going on in our house and that she should be part of it!

Now you're getting it

I know I'm dealing with a wayward, but I was thinking back to how my wife reacted throughout this whole fiasco, when I would ask her to do something. She would always come back with an excuse that she was doing something with her girlfriends - always.

When I asked her out to dinner for our anniversary, she said she had a fund raiser she was going to with her girlfriends. So she would at the very least always tell me what she was doing.

FF to last night and all she said was 'thanks for asking, but I'm uncomfortable, sorry'. This is totally different than how she has reacted to these types of questions in the past. She would have immediately thrown back at me what her plans were. It would not have been the truth, but it would have been something. This time......nothing. Trust me, I'm not looking for hope in the darkest corners, this is just me analyzing, because it is different from her past WW behavior.

When you mentioned guilt, this is what triggered my thought. If she was beginning to at least be peeking through the fog, then she would have some realization of the damage she has caused and would be feeling guilty, and thus would feel uncomfortable around the ones she's hurt.

Her other text about me doing something because I deserve it, is different than in the past as well. She's mentioned a few times last summer that I should go have fun because I deserve it. BUT, that was always preceded by her telling me she had plans with her friends, so she would want me to do something so she didn't feel so guilty. This time around, no mention of any plans for her, just that I should have fun.

This suggests to me that she's in a different emotional WW state of mind than she was months ago. I take the 'have fun' comment this time around to still be conjoined with guilt, but it seems like she's having flashes of a new type of guilt.

I also have this feeling that she's stuck in a rut with OM.

The most that the OM has done entertainment-wise with my WW has been going out to bars/eating out, parties, I think he has a pontoon boat (or his family does) that they would party on, one trip to a Packers game (but they only watched the game at a bar in the stadium, didn't actually attend the game).

Now I'm going to probably shoot myself in the foot here, but for being the co-owner of a SMALL business, he sure hasn't taken her anywhere out of town. One of her good friends who is now divorced and dating a guy who owns his own business has gone to Napa Valley, New York, and Chicago, just in since this past fall. My WW...nothing.

So other than having a pontoon boat, this OM has nothing more to offer than me. A small business that from what my BILs and I can tell is not taken care of, it's been around for 18+ years, but you can tell they haven't grown or expanded it. It's a small family business - the OM is the 'VP', his brother is the president, and the brother's wife is the office manager. My BIL thinks they inherited the business from their dad. We all feel that they just keep the business going enough to maintain their lifestyle and that's it.

So I really am beginning to wonder if my WW is in a rut with the OM. It has to get boring hitting the same bars all the time, and now that she's moved out, she is spending even more time with OM, I guarantee. So they're doing the same repetitious things.

What you have to remember is, the OM is filling one or two of her emotional needs and it's enough to keep her with him. She probably doesn't care what activities they do unless that's a top need for her. One or two ENs being met is not enough to sustain an affair over the long run. Since you know OM has a brother, have you exposed to his family? If not, you need to.

I've been hesitant to do that since I pretty much know these brothers are party hounds, and I know the brother's wife is right in the mix with them. So I'm pretty confident that the brother knows my wife is married and he probably doesn't give a hoot. I should have done more investigation back in August and exposed further to OM family then, but some members I didn't know about at that time.

All I did was expose to my wife's family and mine. The OM wasn't married, so I was SOL with any OMW. I don't think the members of his family have the highest moral values, so exposing to his brother will likely do no good and just cause my wife to move further away from me. I need to give Plan A more time and judge how she's reacting before stirring up the waters.

I do want to get in touch with OM's ex-wife, I do have her address from court records. And if anything else, maybe write a letter to further members of my wife's family (aunts, uncles, etc.) explaining what is really going on and that I want to keep the family together.

SW,

I understand you think you know what the OM family will do or say, but you really don't know. If someone told me that so and so was cheating on their spouse, I probably wouldn't react, but if they showed me who they were cheating with and who it was affecting, I would have more concern. It's important that everyone know what's going on and that you're doing everything you can to save your marriage. At least you have your BILs and their wives on your side.

Seems like she's willing to isolate her self from her own family. When things go bad, she will regret it. That will make her turn to you.

This is why I post on MB, to hear other people's views, experiences, thoughts. This helps me understand more what she may be experiencing and gives me new perspectives on the situation. My only regret is I didn't post on MB in the month(s) leading up to her deciding to move out. Perhaps things may have turned out different.

Because your post I quoted above, I didn't even think about what ENs she was getting met by OM and wasn't. Didn't even cross my mind. So everyone's advice here helps keep me on track.

Figure out here top needs and try to meet them. Evaluate when she was the happiest and what you did/didn't do to meet her needs.

Because she had to lie to cover her backside because she was seeing the OM then.

What is different now?

WW no longer makes up excuses because she no longer has to cover her backside because she no longer has to worry that you may catch her seeing the OM.

WW just tells you no. With an uncomfortable thrown in. Why uncomfortable? To eat with you and her kids?

I think you're being to hopeful. Makes one confuse what one sees with what one hopes he is seeing.

I need to find where the list of ENs is.

Other BIL and his wife and kids stopped by to visit this afternoon. We of course spent some time trying to figure out WW.

So between last night and today, both her brothers and their families came over to my house to visit. The last time WW actually saw any of them was on Christmas day. That's gotta bug the heck out of her that I'm still with our kids every day and that I still get together with her family and she can't.

DS, DD, and DD's friend are hanging out at home tonight. Going to get some PH pizza and rent a movie.