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Discipline is entirely a learned skill. Think not? Compare a fifteen-month-old to that same being as a 23-year-old Marine recruit, or martial arts devotee, or medical student.

It comes from the complete understanding of the effects resulting from decisions that can (must?) be made. That recruit knows what responsibilities are on his shoulders while on the rifle range - the order of operations prescribed by his superiors, the violation of which will result in his being reprimanded/punished. The burden to follow THAT procedure by his sergeant/officers is the result of knowing that NOT punishing the failing soldier releases from his peers the necessary comfort of being assured that the controls on their actions are vital, not arbitrary. And the "mindset" of discipline extends to something as abstract as correctly making the bed in the barracks. (Somehow, the toilets in the engine-room on the USS Carl Vinson get scrubbed. It's a corollary of my premises here that the quality of that operation eventually has an effect on the precision of the launch and recovery of jet aircraft on the flight deck.)

Special treatment, or its anticipation, is the dire enemy of good discipline. The recruit who is the son of the CO would inevitably be the least attentive to otherwise obscure mandated actions.

So too with self-discipline. When the rules governing effects associated with causes are doubted/debated/rejected, self-discipline is impossible. Eventually, one of two things happens. 1)The system suffers sufficient damage that it fails entirely. 2)The subject learns that "the rules" do apply to his case, and forces himself to take the better action.

MSS, my friend, in this matter you have proved to be a slow learner. For that, to get it out of the way, let's blame your parents and childhood role models.

Anyway, you persist in your approximately three-week cycles of "Trigger - React to trigger inappropriately - Generate resentment - Feel like [censored]- Injure your family - Be reassured - Equilibrium"

The red portion is your one opportunity to interrupt the cycle. Let me tell you a secret: YOU AIN'T SPECIAL, DUDE. Once you fail to take the right red action, you are destined to proceed through the other steps.

Here is what it should look like: "Trigger - Analyze trigger - Dismiss trigger"

I'd type more right now, but I'm making a sausage-meatball tomato sauce, and it needs attention (Discipline, again!). Think about this and let me hear back.

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Mmmmm sausage-meatball sauce.

Id love to blame my father, may he rest in peace. He was not the bastion of self discipline in certain respects. (He would go to the supermarket and buy 2 one-half gallons of ice cream. One for his 3 sons and one for himself to devour.) But, he was the greatest father would loved his wife and kids above all else. The love of ice cream and his family are not mutually exclusive.

I cant go through my whole life in that cycle which is precisely what my last several months has been like. I cannot be with my family then get an image and start that darn thing spinning.

Maybe thats what that "time will heal" concept will accomplish, that I can remove the costly, wasteful, and ultimately fruitless four elements of the trigger cycle?

No. It can happen today with a even a modicum of self discipline.

I need more study of your cycle theory. Its in the 'react to trigger innapropriately' phase where I fall mightily. How do I react better and move to dismissing it when I still want answers as to why and how?

She has engaged (probably appropriately so) in a steady campaign of complete silence when it comes to anything regarding the A. In the glass half-full world, I should be glad because if she were to be still caught up in that world by referring to it or, heaven forbid, pining for it, we'd have a whole other set of problems. Its so amazing to me and a source of my continued issues that she seems to have erased a whole long period of time in her life. I told her so in a letter last month that her ability to not have any interest in 1) my unanswered questions, and 2) saying anything at all about the A was a very compelling part of her being.

So, NG, Mrs. mss, has shown the discipline of a seasoned military professional that her husband lacks. I wish I could be more like her in many ways. And, Id like to be nothing like her in many ways.

I am changing my tag line today to the preferred trigger cycle of NG.

Hope the sauce comes out good today.



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Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
Mmmmm sausage-meatball sauce.

Id love to blame my father, may he rest in peace. He was not the bastion of self discipline in certain respects. (He would go to the supermarket and buy 2 one-half gallons of ice cream. One for his 3 sons and one for himself to devour.) But, he was the greatest father would loved his wife and kids above all else. The love of ice cream and his family are not mutually exclusive.

I cant go through my whole life in that cycle which is precisely what my last several months has been like. I cannot be with my family then get an image and start that darn thing spinning.

Maybe thats what that "time will heal" concept will accomplish, that I can remove the costly, wasteful, and ultimately fruitless four elements of the trigger cycle?

No. It can happen today with a even a modicum of self discipline.

I need more study of your cycle theory. Its in the 'react to trigger innapropriately' phase where I fall mightily. How do I react better and move to dismissing it when I still want answers as to why and how?

She has engaged (probably appropriately so) in a steady campaign of complete silence when it comes to anything regarding the A. In the glass half-full world, I should be glad because if she were to be still caught up in that world by referring to it or, heaven forbid, pining for it, we'd have a whole other set of problems. Its so amazing to me and a source of my continued issues that she seems to have erased a whole long period of time in her life. I told her so in a letter last month that her ability to not have any interest in 1) my unanswered questions, and 2) saying anything at all about the A was a very compelling part of her being.

So, NG, Mrs. mss, has shown the discipline of a seasoned military professional that her husband lacks. I wish I could be more like her in many ways. And, Id like to be nothing like her in many ways.

I am changing my tag line today to the preferred trigger cycle of NG.

Hope the sauce comes out good today.

Mike,

All good stuff from NG and HHH. I would add one more thing to it... It's the pre-cycle discipline... Analyze.

You have to be able to identify some triggers BEFORE they happen, so you can prepare for them and work to eliminate them before they happen. It can be done. It's hard, but doable. Holidays for example... Prepping yourself for parties, knowing some fool will be there making a smart comment and getting your head straight so you don't spiral.

Disciplining yourself so you aren't dwelling on these things, but immediately move on to another conversation, thought, action. This will reduce the amount of triggers, and then as you begin doing what NG suggests, you aren't dealing with a whole load of poo, just a little.

Remember, stored memory has emotions tied to them. It takes about 90 seconds for the brain to access the emotion part of the memory, and this is what causes a trigger. A word, smell, sight, whatever sparks an association and your brain recalls a memory and if you think on it long enough the emotion is recalled.

That gives you about 90 seconds to redirect your thoughts to something productive.



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Originally Posted by celticvoyager
Mike,

All good stuff from NG and HHH. I would add one more thing to it... It's the pre-cycle discipline... Analyze.

You have to be able to identify some triggers BEFORE they happen, so you can prepare for them and work to eliminate them before they happen. It can be done. It's hard, but doable. Holidays for example... Prepping yourself for parties, knowing some fool will be there making a smart comment and getting your head straight so you don't spiral.

Disciplining yourself so you aren't dwelling on these things, but immediately move on to another conversation, thought, action. This will reduce the amount of triggers, and then as you begin doing what NG suggests, you aren't dealing with a whole load of poo, just a little.

Remember, stored memory has emotions tied to them. It takes about 90 seconds for the brain to access the emotion part of the memory, and this is what causes a trigger. A word, smell, sight, whatever sparks an association and your brain recalls a memory and if you think on it long enough the emotion is recalled.

That gives you about 90 seconds to redirect your thoughts to something productive.

Just as a PS... This is why we are pushing so hard on continued contact with OMW, POJA and other things.

PPS. You can overcome triggers by having stronger memory associations than the current trigger. Takes time, takes repetition...


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I hear you clearly.

We are committed to this thing.

Wrote her an email this morning as I do my best in writing.

I told her about the NG trigger cycle vs. the trigger cycle Ive been riding. I told her I was impressed with her discipline to ignore my silent treatments and brow beatings and maintain her focus. As she knows no matter what detail, however mild, will most likely get me nuts.

I told her about how I will be trying to minimize the trigger to end of trigger continuum.

I gave her a description of my current trigger scenario using NG's mss' trigger time line and using a trigger I had just yesterday. I described something I see in my head all the time that I visualize with limited info from her and from OMW. Didnt get graphic and didnt insult. Then I went into how I let this image fester, I go into a funk, I then put her and the kids on edge, I let the images go away, let her show me and remind me she;s mine, and end of cycle.

I promised her I would do all to remove almost all of that needless middle parts.

I told her it would go like this: see her with him, understand she is sorry and regrets every minute, and is with me.

She quickly replied that she doesnt know what to do with that silent anger I have. Is she to hold me, is she to initiate SF, is she to talk to me, is she ignore me? Most people tend to ignore a person in that condition as she does.

She said she doesnt talk about the A in any fashion becasue the embarassment is beyond anything she can deal with. She is hoping by improving the areas she failed at would overcome my need to know anything more about what she did.

And, when I go into the aforementioned anger funks it gets her so scared that I may demand to know some of the icky details she is dreading to even recall. She told me there is nothing more I dont know about. She cant give me a minute by minute account of the affair because she remembers so little.

It was the worst time in her life where she nearly lost everything in her life that meant something. She thanks a higher power that Im who I am and gave her the chance to reclaim her family.

She had to walk into work.

We are going on the long family trip next week and would love it if I could leave any anger at her at home. She promised she would make it a trip I never forget.

Trigger, analyze, then F-U to the trigger.


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Mike, did you listed to the clip from the 2/6 radio show that Melody posted here ? I just had a chance to listen this morning, and made some notes:

Originally Posted by Radio Show 2/6 on Resentment After an Affair
- Must make a decision to either stay M or D
- Question: Are you willing to restore the love that was in your M?
- If you make the decision to stay M - you must get on board (both parties must get on board)
- No middle ground of "I'll stay M to you, but I'm not going to feel good about it."
- Without a plan, resentment will go on forever.
- Question: Have you learned how to meet ENs? Overcome LBs? Use POJA?
- If so, you will be in love...and when you are in love, the resentment will fade away
- EPs do come first, but EPs don't create romantic love, they just make affairs impossible

I follow your posts, Mike, but I often hesitate to post to you b/c I see so much of broken (my BH) in your words. Reading your words helps me to better understand what he has gone through/is going through. It's difficult to read your posts sometimes, because the rawness of your words, the anger you feel, I can all too easily imagine broken saying those words to me. And a part of me wonders if maybe it's better that he and I barely speak at all.

But then I look to the emptiness in my own heart, and I know that's not true. I don't want to live like roommates, and just be cordial to each other. It's ironic that I, who was such an accomplished liar, who completely and utterly trashed the virtue of honesty during my A and for several months after, now feel so alone and empty because I feel like I don't have openness and honesty from broken.

All I can say is that as a remorseful FWW, if broken would let me closer than arms' length, I'd love him to pieces. I don't know your FWW, but from what you write, she sounds remorseful and committed to rebuilding your M, and I for one am pulling for you to defeat your demons.


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Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
I hear you clearly.

We are committed to this thing.

Wrote her an email this morning as I do my best in writing.

I told her about the NG trigger cycle vs. the trigger cycle Ive been riding. I told her I was impressed with her discipline to ignore my silent treatments and brow beatings and maintain her focus. As she knows no matter what detail, however mild, will most likely get me nuts.

I told her about how I will be trying to minimize the trigger to end of trigger continuum.

I gave her a description of my current trigger scenario using NG's mss' trigger time line and using a trigger I had just yesterday. I described something I see in my head all the time that I visualize with limited info from her and from OMW. Didnt get graphic and didnt insult. Then I went into how I let this image fester, I go into a funk, I then put her and the kids on edge, I let the images go away, let her show me and remind me she;s mine, and end of cycle.

I promised her I would do all to remove almost all of that needless middle parts.

I told her it would go like this: see her with him, understand she is sorry and regrets every minute, and is with me.

She quickly replied that she doesnt know what to do with that silent anger I have. Is she to hold me, is she to initiate SF, is she to talk to me, is she ignore me? Most people tend to ignore a person in that condition as she does.

She said she doesnt talk about the A in any fashion becasue the embarassment is beyond anything she can deal with. She is hoping by improving the areas she failed at would overcome my need to know anything more about what she did.

And, when I go into the aforementioned anger funks it gets her so scared that I may demand to know some of the icky details she is dreading to even recall. She told me there is nothing more I dont know about. She cant give me a minute by minute account of the affair because she remembers so little.

It was the worst time in her life where she nearly lost everything in her life that meant something. She thanks a higher power that Im who I am and gave her the chance to reclaim her family.

She had to walk into work.

We are going on the long family trip next week and would love it if I could leave any anger at her at home. She promised she would make it a trip I never forget.

Trigger, analyze, then F-U to the trigger.

Good deal Mike. only thing I would change would be that you may have to simply think of something else until you get accustomed to diverting the trigger. You will know if you do or not. Think of football or something..

You did good encouraging her and she did good being O and H

CV


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WG-

When I go back and re-read my posts I, too, cant believe the language I use referring to her or to acts she did or anything pertaining to the affair.

I think it makes me feel good to get a chance to degrade her HERE because I agreed to not AO or degrade her verbally.

I did not listen to the clip, but I read some of the commentary and I certainly know about having a plan and the pitfalls of not having one.

I used to subscribe to the irrational school of thought (and it was asked about recently here) that I could buy my time at home so not to make my home a broken home and upon my youngest leaving for college, I "will dump this ungrateful, piece of garbage b---" first chance then. Id even envisioned having the D papers already for stamping by the courts.

I have scratched any notion of this as its remarkably short sighted. I may as well leave today while Im in my best physical shape and health and earning a decent living and go look for suitable monogamous relationships. And maybe one will be good enough to not cheat on me. Ive thrown out that concept a while ago in favor of making what I got work.


Originally Posted by wulffpack_girl
But then I look to the emptiness in my own heart, and I know that's not true. I don't want to live like roommates, and just be cordial to each other. It's ironic that I, who was such an accomplished liar, who completely and utterly trashed the virtue of honesty during my A and for several months after, now feel so alone and empty because I feel like I don't have openness and honesty from broken.

All I can say is that as a remorseful FWW, if broken would let me closer than arms' length, I'd love him to pieces. I don't know your FWW, but from what you write, she sounds remorseful and committed to rebuilding your M, and I for one am pulling for you to defeat your demons.

I read your posts too and my wife doesnt write her feelings (nor does she explain them too often) so I use yours and others' words in her place. What you said here is exactly what I believe my wife hopes for.

She wants me to let her in because she wants in. And I know and I read between your lines, once in you and my wife are allowed in you both are ready, willing, and able to help us have that marriage we probably never really had.

Regarding the other MB 'must-dos', i will say I have not done them to the extent necessary for sucess and its my fault. Im harboring an anger that gets in the way. I working on corraling this anger as youve ready today.

She has met every EN I have ever asked for. Protection from hurt, more sex, affection, and honesty. She has asked of me to be affectionate to her, increase conversation, financial security, and recreational companionship. I have done a great deal of this despite an underlying animosity.

We've built the foundation and I can say its only solid because she has been a rock throughout the recovery. Steadfast in her dedication to making things right. Im very proud of her. Me, my effort to date is lopsided at best.

Im certainly not telling you anything you dont know already.


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The sauce is delicious, Mike! As was lunch with my dear friend (the one who saved my life during the dark days.)

Anyway, CV tangentially raised an issue that I intended to later, so now is a good time. You apparently are burdened with the curse of thinking too much. This has several implications. One of those is that eventually, you have the potential to be a great addition to the roster of posting advisers here. (But there is time for that in the future.) Another facet of this element is your dismaying ability to create linkages where NO ONE else would. You detect a trigger by patronizing a restaurant NEAR a restaurant, where POSOM went WITH HIS FAMILY? Wow! Are you somehow worried that Chef Wun Hung Low secretly lusted after your wife? Not likely, dude.

If, however, you are prone to that level of creativity, you should examine all possible linkages and purge them now, on spec. What will you do on seeing a camera-equipped cell phone like POSOM used? Or seeing a piece of jewelry like one of the ones tainted? You will someday meet a man with the same first name as POSOM - spitting in his face, and throttling him, would be inadvisable.

Eventually, the "Analyze trigger" step will be second nature, where it revolves around the questions, "Does this materially, or only coincidentally, have connection with my marital situation, and if materially, is it future-related, or historically linked?" Only those items (and I'll bet there are NONE!) that pass both screens have to be dealt with further.

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- Me being hardheaded -


Discipline is not enough. Discipline relies on will. Will is limited.

Discipline is applied in this manner and this manner only; creating habits which create and maintain Romantic Love and Extraordinary Precautions (from BOTH spouses, Mike!) within the marriage.

Habits are carried out like second nature. It's like driving to work. You do it so often and so naturally, that sometimes you don't remember have the drive. Why? Because the actions of driving to work are written into your mind and body so well, you no longer think about it, you just do it.

Meeting ENs, avoiding LBs, PoJA, PoRH, UA... natural, like you've been doing it all of your life.

When those things require DISCIPLINE to do, it's time to reexamine and make sure you are following PoJA and PoRH.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
- Me being hardheaded -


Discipline is not enough. Discipline relies on will. Will is limited.

Discipline is applied in this manner and this manner only; creating habits which create and maintain Romantic Love and Extraordinary Precautions (from BOTH spouses, Mike!) within the marriage.

Habits are carried out like second nature. It's like driving to work. You do it so often and so naturally, that sometimes you don't remember have the drive. Why? Because the actions of driving to work are written into your mind and body so well, you no longer think about it, you just do it.

Meeting ENs, avoiding LBs, PoJA, PoRH, UA... natural, like you've been doing it all of your life.

When those things require DISCIPLINE to do, it's time to reexamine and make sure you are following PoJA and PoRH.

How can I really disagree with this since I see discipline as creating habits? grin


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...I see discipline as creating habits...

You beat me to it, CV. Trip, you and I are not in opposition as to concepts. My goal was to get MSS's ball rolling. I'll let the nature of the human mind do its magic.

Eventually, the "Analyze trigger" step will be second nature...

For the instigation, YES, we would require the utility of conscious will. You and I have the full (unconscious) ability of bipedal motion. My grandson took his first steps last month. No time was wasted pointing out that someday he'll want to run marathons like his mom and dad, so that's the reason to put one foot in front of the other.

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You apparently are burdened with the curse of thinking too much.

NG,

As this has been my problem far too often as well, just wanted to thank you for your post.

Along with MSS, I will be heeding your advice.

Thank you.

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Mike,

I'm glad to read that you are letting go of the "biding my time" attitude. Quite frankly, I don't think recovery happens too often with that mindset. In some cases it might work - the attitude changes over time - but more often than not, it doesn't. Because you're holding onto one thing (the anger) you can't grasp onto another. It's the "we're in this together" attitude that keeps me strong in my trigger moments.

I'm cursed with the "thinking too much" mind too. I literally have to force my mind elsewhere at times. I truly think deciding to go back and finish my degree has been crucial to my not ending up in the nuthouse over all this! Because I tend to be the overachieving type, I insist on having the highest average in my classes and thus, I bury my head in books a lot! Forcing my brain to grasp hard concepts and information from my classes means there's no room to focus on the A.

Not everyone has the need or desire to go back to school - but hey - maybe it's a good time to learn a new skill or take up a new hobby.


"The #1 reason why people give up so quickly is because they tend to look at how far they still have to go, rather than how far they've gotten."

Me, FBW(46) H, FWH (43)
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S (16)
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My Recovery Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538986#Post2538986
My Original Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457141&page=1

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Originally Posted by helpfordad
You apparently are burdened with the curse of thinking too much.

NG,

As this has been my problem far too often as well, just wanted to thank you for your post.

Along with MSS, I will be heeding your advice.

Thank you.

I feel and bet most of us that walk in our shoes have had a feeling of being alone in the world.

That what was always there and true may not actually be so.

All we got is our thoughts whether rational or not.

Another thing a great FWS like mine has done has made sure Im not alone. Its when Im in a mood that she'll back off and that loneliness becomes intense. She really cant win. Comfort me when Im angry and risk getting into an bad mood herself or ignore me as to stay clear of my mood and exasperate my anxiety.

Hey, its Friday, weekend eve, Im getting my mood up and enjoying whats mine.

Thanks all for a good week of advice.


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MSS,

Two things I've noticed with my W:

1.she gets down at times herself, not only becasue of what she's done, but becasue she says to me: "when you're having a 'moment', I can see it in your eyes...and I know I'm the one who casued it.." That alone -- HER pain, HER healing -- is motivation enough for me to try to do a better job NOT overthinking this any longer

2. W is now very protective, almost needy, of me....in that she does not like me being away from her for very long. One, she has expressed a high level of vulnerability in that I have a legit 'out' of this marriage -- one that she does not ever want me to use (nor will I. It's actually weird for me to think she's afraid that I will leave her for someone who hasn't cheated on me, the kids). Two, she expresses how much my strength, my care, me gentleness has not only carried our family during all of this, but also her, personally, as she has mourned, cried, pleaded, processed, etc. and couldn't 'rehabilitate' without me.


It's such a paradox at times.

Thanks.

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Originally Posted by helpfordad
.


It's such a paradox at times.


Ain't that the truth?


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HER pain, HER healing is motivation enough for me to try to do a better job...she has expressed a high level of vulnerability in that I have a legit 'out' of this marriage... she expresses how much my strength, my care, me gentleness has not only carried our family during all of this, but also her, personally...she couldn't 'rehabilitate' without me.

Dude, you call this a "paradox"??

I might call it the greatest spur to testosterone production imaginable.
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NG,

How'd you find my senior yearbook photo?

Thanks, my friend!

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The Valentine's Day card issue was interesting. Spent an inordinate amount of time looking for a card the other day. Nothing quite says, 'you screwed up but Im working on forgiving you' just the way it needs to be said.

But I found one I was happy with.

This morning she ran the boy to school early for band practice and came home and I was still sleeping. She had a card that looked like it written by a remorse-filled WS and it was perfect. She woke me with the card and...well...lets just say she was wearing something I got her for those special alone times.

Not a bad Tuesday morning.


Life keeps on slipping, slipping, slipping into the fuuuu-ture.
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