Thanks americajin. I see what you are saying. I don't believe that I have been pulling the victim card in manipulation. I have truly felt victimized, even when I shouldn't. I have been going to therapy for childhood sexual abuse, and I am shocked at how much that affected my way of thinking about myself. It doesn't change how much my behavior has hurt my husband, but it has helped me recognize things as they are so I can actually do something about it.

I have gone thru life kinda like Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde...alternating between confidence and complete withdrawal. I am dealing with an old way of thinking and healing the wounds. Just yesterday I was able to have a fairly difficult conversation with my MIL and walked away unruffled and unashamed.....VERY new for me. I was not easily offended and I didn't obsess about how our opinions differed. I was actually somewhat at home in my body and did not feel as much anxiety as usual. When I shared this with my husband, he laughed gently and said "welcome to adulthood.". I laughed and said "thank you.". It really did feel good.

For lurkers with childhood sexual abuse in your past, if you have not dealt with it, it is imperative that you do so. I've learned that part of my emotions have not developed past that 4 year old mindset. The world falls apart easily (think emotional tantrum) and my self worth has been so low that any sign of criticism (even a legitimate complaint) would speak to just how worthless I am (was). I would overreact because I desperately wanted all of that NOT to be true...do I matter? Am I just one big screwup? The criticism in my head has been off the charts.

If you have this kind of abuse in your past, PLEASE seek out intensive therapy with someone who deals solely with childhood sexual abuse. Church counseling has never cut it. These guys are secular, and they are making major strides with me. I feel much stronger.

Do it.

Anyway, I guess this is mostly just an update. None of this is an excuse. I'm just glad to know I can do something about all these messes I'm in.

Radio show in the morning...

Listened to the show just now. Here's the links to your show:

Segment A
Segment B

So, Dr. Harley said that exposure right now is good for you because it will:

1. Make you feel better
2. Help your children guard against it happening to them
3. Give accountability -- it is important to confess to family so they can hold you accountable.
4. Give Just Compensation -- exposing himself to family will communicate to you his understanding of how deeply he hurt you.

I think you've already read through the article Dr. Harley talked about -- Can't We Just Forgive and Forget? Might want to read them again.

Dr. Harley basically said that you shouldn't just forgive and forget. Forgiveness means you treat the other person as if it has never happened -- you can't do that with infidelity. Pretending it never happened is not a good idea. Instead, your husband should give you just compensation, because he can't DO anything to gain forgiveness.

He needs to recognize that what he did to you is the worst thing he could have ever done. He could not have beat you senseless and it be worse than the affair. Going to the family and apologizing will communicate to you the depth of his understanding of what he did.

What are you thinking, Anointed?

What am I thinking? I'm glad that I was validated with the call. I don't believe MrAnointed has listened to the call, and I haven't brought it up. We celebrated our Christmas early this weekend, and I didn't want to rock the boat.

We did have a very enjoyable time, and I guess now is the time to bring it up. I'm not looking forward to it.

Just compensation. That is the key I believe.

Yes it is. He hasn't given it to you, yet.

He listened to the radio show last night and nothing has changed. He believes Dr. Harley knows what he is doing, but he doesn't agree on this subject.

Lots of DJ's and AO's flying last night.

He did tell me that it would just kill him to tell his family because he didn't want to hurt them unnecessarily.

I told him it's too late, that he already hurt them by what he did. He disagrees. He feels like if he tells the family that it will just be the beginning of me wanting to tell everyone.

I do want the freedom to share my past whenever I see fit, but I have these 8.5 years kept him in mind, and I can continue to do that if he consents to transparency.

What is so agrivating is that we both feel called to marriage ministry...the kind that would require total transparancy and sharing of our experiences with large groups. He even reminded me of this last night, so where is the disconnect?

I think he will be devastated in telling his family, and just doesn't want to do it. I'm not a factor in the equation at all right now.

I did initiate SF last night even after all the crap hit the fan, but this morning he was distant again.

We are leaving this morning for Christmas vacation, and I am pretty bummed.

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He did tell me that it would just kill him to tell his family because he didn't want to hurt them unnecessarily.

I love it when people say this - how is it going to hurt them? What it will hurt is their opinion of him.

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What is so agrivating is that we both feel called to marriage ministry...the kind that would require total transparancy and sharing of our experiences with large groups. He even reminded me of this last night, so where is the disconnect?

I agree, doesn't make much sense, does it? I would also think that before you would try to help others with issues you should work your own out first.

Thanks americajin.

Not a whole lot has changed in respect to exposing to family. We had a pretty angry discussion right before we left for Christmas with family, and he was mad because he thought I was trying to make him expose during Christmas break. I told him I was trying to do no such thing. I just needed him to see how important it is for my healing. He was surprised that I was not demanding this of him (most likely due to past behavior). I have not mentioned it again since that discussion. I cannot force him to be enthusiastic about this, and I will pray and ask God to do a work in his heart.

As far as the health of the rest of the marriage, I would say it is going better. We are watching LoveBusters, and I noticed lately that we are being much more considerate of each other.

Examples: I checked to see if my husband was finished watching TV before grabbing the remote to change it. There have been times when he's been on his laptop and not seeming to pay attention to the TV that I've just changed the channel without asking (or if I did, it was out of reluctance)

He asked if it was okay to change the screen on the ipad that we were looking at together.

We were cleaning out the garage, and I looked for his enthusiastic agreement before getting rid of things. In the past I have "requested" (demanded) he get rid of things that were in my way. If they were rarely used, I made the decision to get rid of things, and he had better be on board!

I know these things seem small, but they are actually HUGE changes for us. I have not continued to read LoveBusters as planned, and I am feeling completely overwhelmed with my schedule. I know I must make time for things that are important for me, so I'm working on it.

I have asked MrAnointed to sit down with me and work out a plan for 15 hrs UA including SF, but it has not happened yet. We are each waiting for the other to initiate this "meeting"... our stubborness is creeping up. I know that it will benefit the marriage no matter who initiates, but it would make me feel really special if he would take the initiative to do this.

We started working out together again last night, so that will add about 7.5 hrs UA each week. SF has become a little more frequent, but I think scheduling SF would obviously increase that time.

I'm feeling more hopeful. Thank you all for your support.

Why would you need enthusiastic agreement for exposure?

CWMI, Don't you think the 8 (almost 9) years passage of time requires a different approach? I've been a pushover about this, yes. But I didn't know about MB at the time. Now I do. Now I know it is what I need.

But my husband is unwilling. I don't know what to do about that.

Anointed,

I think you're on the right track of thinking. Exposure in this case is NOT to kill an active affair, but to give you just compensation. It wouldn't really give you what you need if you force your husband out into the open.

I believe the right course of action for you would be to continue with the MB program -- eliminate lovebusters, meet EN, and get at least 15 hours UA time in each week.

When you and your husband are in love again, his unwillingness to talk to other people about his affair will most likely change to willingness.

Stop being stubborn and initiate it In fact, plan a set time each week to go over the next week's schedule together -- then nobody has to wait on anybody to initiate anything. Go to the meeting with a list of suggestions.

UA is key. You gotta get this done.

UA is still a problem. He's not sure 15 hrs a week is doable, and I'm not sure I totally disagree. Our children are busy bees, but we've GOT to figure out a way to work the time in.

Here is an update:

I've done some more reading on my own. DH is not too keen on how much reading I do on this site. We had a really tough week 2 weeks ago, and then SF picked up...what do you know??? Everything got better! DH was so in tune with my emotions and very loving and kind.

Last week was so nice.

This week was my last week working (LOOONG battle there), and we are off again. I have stopped taking my birth control which causes very long menstrual periods...drastically affecting our SF. We decided to stop taking birth control so we could try to have another baby.

Now I'm not so sure.

I know UA really is the key, and SF ALWAYS makes him feel so much better in our relationship which in turn makes me feel secure.

The problem is, other ways of meeting his need for SF leave me feeling very alone and unimportant. I'm in counseling now for early childhood sexual abuse, so I'm working to heal in that area. For now, I feel very much alone when we do anything other than intercourse. Even if he is the one giving oral. I don't like being alone. I like to have him with me face to face. He got very upset with me today when I told him this. He really does not like having intercourse while I'm having my period.

That is one major issue we are having. See next post for an even bigger one:

The other night DH was talking politics with me and the kids in the kitchen. He gets very passionate, and he sounds kinda hateful. I get worried about what he is teaching the kids, so I will chime in about my thoughts on the subject.

He makes general statements about certain races and geographic locations, and I add that not everyone in that group believes the same way and we should love everyone...even if we disagree with them.

He got pretty upset with me and said, "Let me tell you simple-minded people how this works..." I was shocked! He was talking to me and the kids! I told him that calling names was unacceptable, and it excalated from there.

We started to talk more that night, and it ended with me walking out when he was belaboring a point rather than discussing the issue at hand: name calling.

Yesterday we were fine at lunch, but after my counseling session I realized just how upset and insecure I was feeling in the relationship. Am I less important than the need to make a point? I waited til after midnight to talk with him last night, but he was still working. I made the mistake of basically demanding we talk when he was busy, but then I walked out when I saw it was going nowhere.

Today we talked about it at lunch, and it still didn't go well. He won't outright say that it is wrong to call names, and he even tried to explain how it is a choice if I let someone calling me names hurt my feelings.

I finally let him know that there are 3 types of abuse that cannot be tolerated in a relationship: sexual, physical, and verbal abuse. I told him I had the responsibility to protect myself and our 3 children from someone who feels that name calling is appropriate at times. He then said that he never said that calling names is ok.

It takes me DAYS to get this man to admit something straight up without all the circles. He then asked if I thought it was so bad that I felt like I needed to take me and the kids out of this house? Then he just walked out.

I don't think it is bad, but I think it could get bad if he won't ADMIT and COMMIT to making sure this never happens. It has been kinda bad in the past, and I know his heart is not to hurt any of us.

He says I blow things out of perportion. I'm still learning how to set healthy boundaries for myself, so I'm asking for your input.

15 hours UA is doable. Couples with more children than you do it all the time.

Here's a thought: Children need parents who are in love. Children need parents who have a strong, healthy marriage. Give your children the best foundation in life by taking the time to build a marriage with your husband. Your marriage must come first. In the end, it won't matter how many activities they are involved in. What will matter the most in their lives is whether or not their parents had a good, romantic marriage.

Get your UA in. Make it a priority. Nothing else will work without it.

Expect it to be a roller coaster for awhile.
The two of you will need to negotiate a way to have SF that is enjoyable for both of you. If he doesn't like something, don't do it. Vice versa. Don't allow yourself to gain at each other's expense. That may mean no sex during your period. Or there may be a variety of other options.

Check out Vitex for your heavy, painful periods. That is not an uncommon problem for women coming off of birth control, and there are a variety of herbal supplements that can help.

As for the politics and name calling ... If you don't enjoy talking to him about politics, don't talk about politics. Find a subject you both can enjoy. If he really, really wants to talk politics, then he will need to find a way to do it that you enjoy. Otherwise, just don't discuss it.


Be careful telling your husband he "should" do anything. This is a DJ (even if it's true). You are telling him what he has to think. You are telling him that his thoughts are invalid and wrong. You are telling him that you are smarter than him. You are educating him. And most people cannot handle their spouse educating them. It is a lovebuster.

Next time, do not confront him about the name calling to his face in the heat of the moment. Write it down, and discuss it with him later when things are calmer. If you are very upset, leave. Take the kids with you if you want. But any confrontation in the heat of the moment will only lead to defensiveness on his part, and escalation.

He will be more likely to listen later, when things are calm and he doesn't feel the need to defend himself.

When you bring it up later, be respectful.


Why is it "belaboring" when he wants to talk about a point, and "discussing" when you want to talk about a point?
These discussions MUST take place when both of you are calm, with no DJs or Demands. Read up on the friends and enemies of good conversation. Read up on complaints vs. criticism.

If you don't feel that you can discuss something without lovebusters, put it off. He doesn't deserve to be lovebusted just because he lovebusted you. Two evils do not make a right.

Thanks, Prisca.

This is why I value this forum so much.

"As for the politics and name calling ... If you don't enjoy talking to him about politics, don't talk about politics. Find a subject you both can enjoy. If he really, really wants to talk politics, then he will need to find a way to do it that you enjoy. Otherwise, just don't discuss it. "

What do I do if he is talking about these things in front of the children? I don't like the attitude he is teaching them, and of course he wants to be free to express his own opinion.

I did mention I don't enjoy talking politics with him. I also asked him that if I was on the opposite political end of the spectrum than him, would he still love me? He didn't answer outright but did say it would be hard for him to connect with me.

"Be careful telling your husband he "should" do anything. This is a DJ (even if it's true). You are telling him what he has to think. You are telling him that his thoughts are invalid and wrong. You are telling him that you are smarter than him. You are educating him. And most people cannot handle their spouse educating them. It is a lovebuster. "

This is so right. I HATE it when he does this to me. This is another example of me not following the same rules--as he puts it.

"Next time, do not confront him about the name calling to his face in the heat of the moment. Write it down, and discuss it with him later when things are calmer. If you are very upset, leave. Take the kids with you if you want. But any confrontation in the heat of the moment will only lead to defensiveness on his part, and escalation. "

This is my problem. The fact that he will not commit to changing the name calling behavior makes me worried he will continue. Is this not verbal abuse? Like I'm saying, I'm learning about proper boundaries. I've read lots of horror stories about how these things progress, and I've watched some pretty ugly behavior from my FIL towards my MIL that really worries me. I do not want that to be us in 20 years.

Should I make a firm stand? Should I protect my children? And me? He doesn't agree that it is right, but he will not commit to changing it. He feels I am demanding he change it. I am. Aren't I supposed to when it comes to abuse?

"Why is it "belaboring" when he wants to talk about a point, and "discussing" when you want to talk about a point?"

And yes, I did this too. He was so frustrated with me, and I can see why.

I have been such a pushover...am I too extreme on the other end of the spectrum now? I just want to do what is right for me and the kids.

We learned not to call names in Kindergarten. I don't understand why this is even a discussion.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8110_cod.html

This may be the root of my problem... I am trying to get healthy, and I am getting conflicting messages.