ES, I'm so sorry for your loss. My gramma was dear to me as well and it's sad that I dont' have her anymore. I cherish the memories we had together as I'm sure you will with your Grandma. Grandparents have a special way of shaping our lives and staying with us even in their absence.

From a BS's (and divorced H's) perspective, I can say that you have a special "in" with your ex. It's easy to see that the most happiness can come from being in love with the other parent of your own child.
You have some points against you, obviously, and that's what has brought you here. But those things CAN be put behind you. What will never be behind you is the fact that you gave birth to your ex's daughter. I also think that all of us BS's dream of one day seeing a repentant, contrite, ex with a changed heart, and healthy behaviors.

Keep on track, ES. You're doing great!

opt

Hello.

I appreciate the well-wishes. I am hanging onto God. I really am.

I am happy with these steadily strengthening changes; I'm learning more and more. optimism, when you said "But those things CAN be put behind you" it floored me. The guilt and anguish over what my life was by MY OWN actions still tears me up--and when you said that, it got me blubbering again. It's only a sign that I believe it is true, and also that is what grace is--God's given me grace, and I intend to make Him proud with my life. It's undeserved, and I'll be darned if I misuse that.

One thing though: I am leaving to see my daughter in about four days. I'll be seeing her for 4 days. I am TERRIFIED--and NOT about seeing my sweet baby Love, no. It's about being in contact with his mom. I'm terrified of my past reigning that time, or "floating" over me. His dad too--last time I saw him, he couldn't even say he loved me (he almost did--he said, "Look, I do lo--care for you" Yeah.)

I am SHAKING in my boots.

I didn't see your post a few days ago. So maybe you've already left for California. I wish you well and I know you'll be fine. You are doing the right thing, heading in the right direction, and I believe you have the right attitude, so I believe good things will happen.

I have to back up one step and say however that if you are scared that is a good thing. Don't take this negatively, but "you should be" comes to mind. Your past actions have disillusioned your ex's parents. It's only natural for them to be suspicious and protective of their own boundaries/welfare, as well as that of their own son's.

But I think this is the part that you UNDERSTAND. And I think that's what sets you apart from others in your situation.

Objectively I would advise to bring it up yourself. Right away. Tell them how you feel and that you absolutely don't expect anything from them, that you wouldn't blame them if they never forgave you; all you can do is continue to prove to yourself that you are worthy of respect and hope that everyone else feels that way eventually. You understand that trust has to be earned and you're way in the hole.

I don't have much time, but I think I mentioned that I exposed my own adultery (from 10 years prior) to my now-ex's parents (and several others). Nobody knew anything and I could have taken it to my grave (of course, my original wayward intent), but folks here convinced me that was not the way. That was not fun. Her dad is a formidible 300 lb Italian Dad, but I survived and am better for the experience. Usually people will give you credit for being truly sorry for making grave errors in judgement, especially if one is truly taking responsibility and making changes to avoid repeat performances.

opt

Hi, thank you for your prayers. It was a good trip.

I communicated well with his family, and things went smoothly. I tried to put myself out there, and get out of my "comfort zone" to be a help and a blessing for THEM...it was good.

xH and I were able to talk too...it was much-needed. We went out, and he brushed my hand, and locked pinky fingers with me for a second or two. He showed affection (?) by wrapping his arm around me and holding me tight as we walked through cold cold weather. Maybe I'm searching too hard--thinking that touches are signs he still has feelings. He never mentions feelings though. He has been very encouraging.

I am trying to be patient. I close my eyes and imagine being his wife again...

*Edit to include: I finished dinner one night at his family's place. I had his mom and dad at the table, and the xH was w/our daughter in the living room, when I told his parents I had something very important to tell them--I went on to say how sorry I was for what I did, and before I could finish, his dad said, "...stop beating yourself up about it", and I went on to say, that I aam trying to live in an honorable way, whether or not someone is watching.

Sounds great ES!

I read this but didn't get to responding, so I apologize for that if you were looking for feedback.

Seems like you are very much on the right track. I like that you feel he showed you affection. That's one very important intimate emotional need and gives big love bank deposits.

I'd like to hear more about the trip and your thoughts/feelings about it.
What went really well and what didn't in your view (where could things be better next time)?
What do you feel you learned for areas to work on now that your back home -- things that will be important? Anything new or what you already started?

How was it seeing your baby girl!!?

opt

Well, in the trip, I was there for my baby. Even got to teach her some lessons about being thankful (talked her through some things)...I told her I loved her a LOT. I loved the time I spent with her. It was four days long. Too short. My next visit, I am planning to be longer. I also plan to look for jobs that will accept me in December (after I graduate, Dec 14th). I have decided to trust in God for nothing short of a miracle. I need one. My xH said at least $10,000 will be needed to be saved up before I move out there--I need a miracle, and a way to be found to have a job to sustain me when I get there, and also money to live off of when I get there.

When I was there, I REALLY held back my affection for xH. I wanted to love on him so bad (physically being affection), but I didn't. I didn't know if it was affection he'd show at times, or if it was just being nice. He and I sat in the car before the movie we were to see, and he rested his hand on my knee, patting it--sort of like, "there, there"...I don't know if that is affection per se...not the kind I am seriously craving. I wish for the tender loving kind, the sweet slow carress, or longer holding, or.....a kiss.....

*sigh*

You asked what went well and what didn't go well, in my view. Well, things that went well, were the times with my sweet baby, the travel, communication with the xH's parents, and his sis. What didn't go well was when I was driving back to the night before my last night there, and I sobbed ALL the way there (15 min, and then in the parking lot) I mean I was WAILing, screaming with pain, yeah, screaming--it just came gushing out....I felt like I couldn't hold it back or stop the pain and tears and wails. I was gnashing my teeth because it hurt so bad. Even physically. I don't know how to explain it, but I was wondering as I was sobbing: "Is this what a breaking heart physically feels like?" I got very sick afterwards. I'm just getting over it now. Also, I hated feeling a longing to be close to him, and at the same time, pretending I wasn't feeling that way. I told him later that I loved him, but I was very very calm and stoic about it. Almost nonchalant, when in reality, I wanted to passionately tell him, "Look, you are the one my heart longs for--I am deeply in love with you, please accept it, consider it, think on it..." something like that.
Ohhhh, my heart is aching for him. He has no idea. I don't know if he cares at all. When he touches my hand, or knee, it's almost like he may be doing it out of just "being nice" not because he is "affectionate" or has feelings, and it's all confusing. And.....yes, frustrating because of the confusion. I miss my Love.
I miss when he touched me, and I knew it was his affection...now I ache again, so I'm done typing about it for now.
I am holding onto a God that loves me, and can do anything. I have to.

Mary, thanks for updating more thoroughly.

When is your next visit?

I think you did fine. No LB's right? that's a great place to start in re-establishing your R with your ex.

I believe he wants to trust you and you are doing what you can to prove that to him. Allowing him to show you some (even just a little) affection, on his own terms was a good approach. As you continue, as best you can from a distance, to build that trust with exemplary behavior and openness and honesty, I think you'll be making strides in the right direction.

You did a LOT of good by ingratiating yourself with his family. A LOT. Keep it up, Mary.

opt

Very courageous what you told his parents. Also very courageous to not let him know how much you want him. That is probably the best way to do it at this time, although it must be very very difficult. It is important for him and you to see that you have your feelings under control at the outside, although on the inside you are a very warm-hearted person.

What a good idea to look for jobs beforehand. That way you can do some advance planning. Also, why does your husband think you need so much money saved? If you would be able to find a job, it will surely not be so difficult to find a place to stay? Traveling back and forth to see your baby girl also requires lots of cash...

You are doing very well. I am thrilled to hear that your visit went well. You are well on your way to be this wonderfull mature woman. You will bring happiness in more people's lives than you think because of your warm-hearted nature. It is totally understandable that you cried because of the entire situation. The car is probably one of the best places for that. (You don't want to snotter at the dinner table...) And you are working a very good plan to turn your life in a better direction, where you will be able to see your child on a regular basis again.

Well done and God bless your efforts,

Happyheart

Happyheart, I have to admit something: He does know how I feel, because a few weeks ago, I sent him a letter and in it, I told him "...I am in love with you..." :-/

But, I did hold back when I was face-to-face with him. *sigh*

And, optimism, I think there was a LB (only one, as far as I know, because I made a conscience effort to be the best I could be): I told him a dream I had (basically in it--it's still so vivid--he showed affection to me, and pulled back every time his parents walked past, but then decided he didn't care...he gave me a ring, a promise ring,and laying on his lap were the real wedding rings for a future time. It's a long dream, but that's the bare minimum) I stopped short telling him, 'cause I had this feeling that it may pressure him, and I do NOT want that!

I got to tell him about when I blocked all the guys I used to be interested in in the past. I told him (when we got to sit in the car and talk before the movie we went out to) "This lesson has been SO extremely COSTLY and expensive, that if I don't learn from it, and change, and live my life differently, there is something very seriously wrong..." or something like that. He told me, "Well, that sounds liek a lot of pressure" and I said "Well, it's not 'pressure' if I realize just what kind of evil I did". He said evil was a strong word, but, that is just how I feel about it. (that is what it is)

I started getting involved with a student Christian ministry at the school. There's this man that I run into regularly. He is attractive = so I've been avoiding him when I can. He sent me a "friend" request on FB, and I clicked "Ignore".
I am becoming increasingly lonely, and so, I am countering with increasing focus.

ES, I'm sorry I missed this post. I would have responded earlier. I hope you are doing well.

I have to say your last line reminded me of a conversation I recently had with a client (I'm in healthcare/homecare). She has all healthcare people coming to her house and states that it was going to be hard to adjust when she got better. Hard to adjust back to being alone. I asked her to elaborate and she said there's always a period of transition but then after a while she gets comfortable again (she's been on her own for quite some time). I thought that might be helpful for you to hear.

I think you are practicing boundaries and what we call "extreme precautions" with 'handsome man.' It will be good to have these skills in your future relationship (hopefully with ex hubby); you are learning my friend. I have to do similar things (we all do). Dr. H says all people will be unfaithful in certain circumstances and none will be in other circumstances. In Friday's radio show he told Joyce that she can not necessarily trust him to be faithful BUT she can trust him because he doesn't put himself in situations where he MIGHT be unfaithful. A big part of that is to simply not have Personal conversations with "attractive" people from opposite sex. That's where the slippery slope usually begins.

Your ex doesn't understand the concepts here, and shouldn't be expected to. But you don't have Pressure. You can tell him that it's a lot LESS pressure having boundaries for yourself and focussing on ONE romantic relationship, and not a host of other POTENTIAL relationships. Turning your back on the temptations that the devil puts in front of you might be difficult at first, but it's so liberating once you get the hang of it. You sleep good at night, knowing you lived up to your own expectations of yourself. That's not pressure.

I don't believe your "LB" above is really a LB. You were being open and honest. You were sharing your feelings. If you were balancing the conversation and also doing a lot of questions to him and listening, I don't see any of that as a LB. From a dating perspective, or trying to win a man's affections, you may have over indulged a little; but this situation is quite different than normal "getting to know you" dating.

I also would caution you to apply MB principles to the idea that you are "in love" with this man. What happens when you get away from someone is that you are no longer exposed to their lovebusters. You forget about the things they do that annoy you. You only remember the $LB deposits. I believe he may be a good candidate for a marriage partner given that he is the Father of your child. I believe you were in love with him at one time. I believe you could be in love with him once again. But I don't think, by MB definition, you are in love with him. I say this to help you keep perspective. Remember, he is human and even if/when you get him back in your life, there will be struggles and conflicts. The difference will be that you'll be much better prepared to deal with the conflicts by negotiating and using MB principles to maintain your $LBs with each other.

Have you listened to the radio show? What books have you been able to read, even portions of because I Know you're busy with school...

Keep working toward being the best Mary you can be. For You, your daughter, and for your future husband. I think you're doing great!

opt

Thank you Optimism for your response. This has been hugely (is that a real word?) helpful to me.

Yes, I am practicing Extreme Precations. Reading what I have been, I also have noted that these Extreme Precautions are being practiced in marriages (troubled or otherwise) by married men and women; or at least people who have a hope in hell for marriage. I guess I'm doing it just for me at this point. Unfortunately, and CONFUSINGLY, today, I wondered why I deleted/ignored that guy's request (since he clearly is nothing more than an aquaintance), why I feel uncomfortable looking at other men (and these are passing glances I'm talking about, not gawking), why I always immediately overt my eyes from someone who's attractive, why I feel guilty for smiling at someone, when I was and am being rejected by the only man I really care about. Admittedly today, I found myself gritting my teeth in frustration and tearing up and feeling that familiar hurt at being rejected. Now, must I rehash my mistakes and continue to tell myself "I deserve rejection, I deserve solidarity, I deserve exactly what I got, because I behaved like a whore"? I could, But, I struggle NOT to beat myself again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again, DAILY. So, no, I won't right now.

Someone made a comment about concentrating on "one romantic relationship at a time" or something to that effect. I'm not even in ONE romantic relationship. There is NO romance in my life, and hasn't been for years. So, I'm not sure what that person meant by that.

Last night was the ninth night in a row that I dreamed about xH. and these are the vivid, life-like types; last night, I didn't want to sleep because I was afraid of dreaming of him again. It's like my subconsciece won't give me a break either. I feel tormented lately (last couple of days). Today I was daydreaming of his smell, his chest, his arms, and let mt memory take over. I haven't done that in a while, and maybe it was easy to do that all day, because these dang dreams have been like clockwork, every night. It's like I am getting weak.

HUGE LB tonight: I realized that xH would not be able to come down here (like he's been saying for the last couple of years) for another 2.5 yrs, at least because the school he's going to does NOT give the students breaks (three days if he's LUCKY) and he graduates in about 2.5 years. It just hit me--and I texted it (my realization)to him. He texted back that he'll come down if he ever gets the money and a few days off, to which I replied again, that that would be about another 2.5 years from now. here's where the LB comes in: I said "It's okay, all of your family is in CA, so, no hurry". And I was feeling extreme pain when I texted that--major mistake.

Oh, and I most certainly remember all the LB's he is capable of, and still does. When I was in CA a month ago, I mentioned to him that it was rude (I said it politely) that he cut me off mid-sentence to change the subject to something totally unrelated, not allowing me to finish first, and he said he was sorry, let me finish, and we both went on our merry way. In the past, I would have let him be aloof and indifferent to what I had to say, or what was on my mind or whatever, but this time, I mentioned to him how I was feeling (respectfully and gently), and it worked. But believe me, I certainly noticed a LOT of LB's he still does.

*Edit to include*:
I plan to visit my baby in a month or so when I get a break (use my tax return to help me purchase everything), and when I saw it was going to cost $1,100 just for a place to stay, I found myself feeling angry--a first. I think that bust of emotion came on because of the price initiall, but I felt hot tears at my struggles. I wonder if am burning out. Give, give give, but seems nothing is coming my way, or has been for a long time.

Realized again for the innumerable time that xH got everything. My baby, the divorce--everything he wanted. some people might say, "Good, you evil whore". I have found myself becoming increasingly upset. I have found myself becoming fearful 'cause I wonder if there is someone else. He acts nice and aloof and indifferent. Just to be nice for the sake of being nice or for our daughter, not because of me or anything. That hurts too. What if there is someone else. Then, I will have lost her, him, and any chance too. I feel exhausted, exasperated, strung-out, worried and resentful.

Don't beat yourself up. I believe what you are experiencing is the first recognition of boundaries which will keep you safe now and in the future in a healthy relationship. You may be overdoing it right now. I'm the same way. I wonder if that second glance at a pretty girl would hurt my GF to the core. I'm that careful. However, the real tipping point for an inappropriate relationship from what I have learned here is when the conversation gets personal. Looking at a guy is not going to destroy your moral integrity. FB is dangerous however because things get very personal very quickly, hiding behind virtual anonymity. Talking to a colleague can be fine, if you're talking about school, or work. Soon as it becomes, "I wish my husband would give me more attention," then you've crossed the line. You are learning about boundaries Mary and they are hard lessons but you will see the benefits and your daughter will too -- you are going to be able to train her with your behaviors; saving her the problems that come with living a life prone to succumbing to all different temptations that the devil puts out there for us.

I believe the idea was that you may not be in an INTIMATE relationship right now, but you are concentrating on a ROMANTIC relationship. By the way, that starts right where you're starting it now: with ES. When you appreciate your own gifts that you bring to the world, you become irresistible.

Maybe your tone was more caustic than the statement. Can you see how you could have said the same thing in a way that wasn't a LB?

He doesn't know from lovebusters. You've already said there is huge dysfunction in his family and how they treat each other. Expect nothing different in a relationship with him until you can work with him on these philosophies. It could take years. He may never get it, IF you ever get a chance. That's the reality of it -- this board is riddled with one spouse who is struggling to get their other half on board with MB. If mine had, I'm convinced I would not be divorced right now. All we can do is adopt the principles, because they do lead to healthy relationships with ourselves and others and because they give our kids a fighting chance to avoid some of the stupid choices that we've made.
Dr. Harley talks everyday about the conflicts he has with his wife Joyce. 49 years married and still with "complaints" -- respectfully submitted and meant to help each other fall more in love with one-another. You did this above. Avoiding conflict (like you used to do) is a good way to fall OUT of love with someone, which is the last thing you want.

You're building a base of new behaviors and a new way to look at the world. The work you are doing is below the surface (like what happens in the initial stages of building a bridge over a river). You won't necessarily see the progress or the physical representation of your efforts right away. Eventually if you persist, the evidence will surface.

Keep reading Mary, you are doing just fine.

opt

If there is someone else, and there could be, I would ask him to be honest with you about that. For now, keep your chin up, kay?

opt

Optimism, thanks for respondng. So, I did choose to tell him, in a text (It's like trying to get in touch with the President, trying to get in touch with him on phone)'cause I had to use text--I asked him if he'd be comfortable telling me if he was interested in someone, and he said, "id tell you if I was dating someone". Well that's not what I asked, but that's fine.

As far as "romance"--I think we have differing definitions of romance. If romance means one scorned and abandoned woman pining for her former husband, and for her family, again, writhing in anguish day and night for years, that is not my definition of romance. xH has given NO indication he is romantically interested; and this relationship between us is void of any "romance" (if we are using my definition).

I do continue my new habit of keeping the communication lines (at least on my end) open, and telling him how I feel. He is silent and dead when it comes to communicating things--except when he gets emotional, which is seldom--but then his TRUE feelings come out, and he can't use pretenses. I don't want communication from him to be like that anymore. I'm getting so discouraged with that.

I have finals and things are wrapping up for school this semester. Since I got that text from him ("id tell you if I was dating someone") I have been extremely distracted, hurt, discouraged, and school is suffering a LOT. I watched porn (rarity, if ever), trying to soothe myself with SOME form of relief and comfort, but everything I watched reminded me of what I've been missing. They say "time heals all wounds" whoever said that was not a first-time mother and a woman deserted, abandoned, unforgiven, and scorned by her family. Things are getting increasingly worse, as I try and make myself better. I felt I was growing strong in good habits, and I still maintain that, and am proud of the major progress over this last year at least--but, I continue to be hurt most by the people that should be loving me.

I offered to split my tax return with xH. But after paying $470 for the flight, $700 for the rental car, and $565 for the cheapest hotel I could find, and I STILL have tuition left to pay, even after my GI Bill--I don't know how much will be left for me OR for him!!

I am trying not to be resentful. Sometimes, the pain of the realization that he may not of loved me at all gets to me REAL bad. when she was born, I gave her his last name. When we split, I let her go with him. I let him sign on as her dad on her birth cert. I allowed the divorce and custody thing go through, as originally planned, 'cause I thought there would still be a chance with him. WHY THE [censored] did I allow all that?!?!?!? Because I loved him. YES! to all the haters, scorners, people who may call me a whore--I LOVED HIM! He has GRAVELY hurt me too!!!!!!!!!

...and I didn't feel worthy to fight for what was truley mine, because I knew I messed up. But I shouldn't have allowed the divorce. I shouldn't have allowed her to stay with him--LET him be mad at me!!! LET HIM! But no, I didn't, I AQUIESCED!!!!!!

Mary ... what makes you attractive? This forum can feel you falling apart at the seams. The goal is to become attractive.

The first step to being attractive is to get yourself near your child, and demonstrate you are a good woman, mom, and friend.

I strongly believe he is seeing someone. He isn't telling you because he still cares for you and enjoys the cake he can eat. That is the price of adultery.

As hard as it is to step outside of this situation ... doing it will save your life. Your emotional well being needs to come first, and must be top priority.

I know options have been given to you, and batted back and forth, and you had a plan working, but now have come emotionally unglued by your recent trip.

Time can heal all wounds ... you have to work it to feel it.

This is a marathon and not a sprint.

If you begin to live your values then your esteem will meet those values. Values are the principles we live and the priorities we establish.

From what I am reading ... this is your list

GOD
1) xHusband
2) Your daughter
3) Your family
4) Your schooling
5) Your job

What you are living is this?

1) School
2) Money
3) xHusband
4) Your daughter
5) God
6) everything else ...

I can see why you are in turmoil ... your living a life you cannot settle in your soul.

Live your values and the rest will follow.

There is no time for a pity party ... there is only time to work. You are a grown woman and made grown woman choices ... as bad as they were ... they were your choices.

Pick yourself up ... dust yourself off ... make your life happen.

You no longer get to pine away for what was ... you are a mother ... your child needs you more than anything in this world.

As I stated above ...

Start walking your Talk
Start building your habit
Your habit will turn into action
Your actions will be your character
Your character will be your legacy ... make it happen!!!!

I don't know what to say, except, my plan to graduate this December, then move there is unchanged. I don't know what else to do. There is nothing more I can do. Sorry I had to just be flaberghasted today. I mean, he has a whole week off, but I only got to talk with her twice.

Pray'--thanks for responding too...when you said that you "strongly" felt like he was seeing someone, that was enough to send me in a panic in my chest. So, now, it's 0330, I have class in a few hours, and I can't sleep. Do tell, what are the signs on which you post your assurety?