That was crazy!
Look what happens when I need sleep.

I've lost a lot of faith in people and this process. Custody evaluator also saw no problem with WW taking over 3000 vicodin and drinking about $4000 in alcohol in a year. I was portrayed as being controlling for trying to put together an intervention. Prescribing doctor said it was fine also.

Well of course the prescribing doctor doesn't give a rip, she must be making him oodles of money.

You have to keep fighting. Your WW WILL slip up, or one of the kids WILL suddenly decide it's not okay to LIE.

Do not lose faith.

X2

I guess I don't understand what you mean when you say "fight."
Your kids are teenagers. They know honesty from dishonesty. They also know the importance of using words accurately to describe a situation, including and especially as it relates to the fate of another man. They certainly understand the implications of words in the context of a legal situation, essentially a court of law.

Now, you find yourself living with....and supporting to whatever extent...a woman who has implemented a deceitful plan to take away your very right to legally see your kids until they are 18 and considered adults. You are living with....and supporting to whatever extent...a girl who has been an accomplice in this plan and essentially accused you of being a wife and child abuser. Your son, who you are supporting to some extent has now essentially accused you, in addition, of being a child molester.

Have you considered fighting for SBT instead of "your family?" Have you considered protecting yourself from these people who you say have become engrossed in a life lies and deception?

Maybe it's time to respectfully plan B* the whole lot of them. With a massive exposure about the whole mess to everyone you think might be a friend or at least have an ounce of sense in their heads.


I would like to know what Dr. Harley would say about this. Have you considered calling the radio show?


Opt

*NOTE: I respectfully submit the idea of Plan B here. Not condoning "disappearing" for a while, or abandoning your family -- that's not what plan B is or would be in this situation. I'm talking about removing yourself from a toxic, unhealthy, dishonest environment. If you are interested I will say more about how I would implement this strategy logically and systematically.
Also a disclaimer. I did NOT implement Plan B in my situation, so I am no expert. However, after retrospection and months/years of gaining full understanding of the MB concepts, I can see just how effective it is (and possibly could have been for me), when done correctly in extreme situations.
Also a quesestion SBT: is it possible your teenagers are using any of these prescription meds? I know it seems beyond comprehension but my girlfriend had a problem child and she tells of some craziness from when he was 15...things do happen.

I also have two children under 6.

I'm sorry SBT, I went back to your original post in this thread. There is nothing in your signature, so it's not easy to keep track but this is what I found:


I must have misunderstood that there are other kids as well and perhaps which is being said to and by whom might be where I went wrong.

Either way, a nice big long letter to Dr. Harley at the radio show with a request for a little direction might be in order. There is a sense of urgency here and the radio show in my view, addresses this type of thing quite nicely.

opt

Yes Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com.

Sorry. 5 kids. 4 minor. Daughters 19, 12. Sons 14, 6, 3.

I don't think any of my kids are using. I can't prove it but I have no reason to believe it. I also am not certain that my WW is anymore either. I do know that she hides continued drinking.

I would like to hear more about your thoughts on plan b.

Well, SBT, I understand the magnitude of going into a Plan B with a whole family of 5 who are counting on you. However, I also understand the implications of being falsely accused of multiple charges, by several family members, much to your detriment; and having to continue to try to thrive in that environment...it is important that you set an example for AT LEAST the younger kids about what self-respecting people do when they are living in an unhealthy, abusive situation. (and I believe dishonesty abuse).
What do they do? They remove themselves from the situation.

What I wanted to reiterate is the importance of making it clear (in writing) why you are removing yourself from the situation. In clear terms to all involved. Clear, logical, non-threatening, non-accusatory, sensible, I'm-protecting-myself-from-now-on type of terms that all can understand; even little kids. And what conditions will have to be met before you give the involved parties opportunities to abuse you more.

The way I'm reading it, you have nothing to lose anymore, SBT. Your wife is successfully taking your kids away from you. The only thing left is the part where she employs you as a babysitter that actually pays HER (that's the definition of Child Support for this type of person); so that you can "have some time with the kids."

What message do you want to impart to your children?

opt

Well here is an update. In short I am looking for anyone who may have experience fighting for custody where their are all the things I have already described as well as a heathy dose of alienating behaviors.

I am now about 5 weeks from trial. I am working my way through discovery request and preparing my own arguments. I am broke and my atty tells me that due to the complexity of my case I can expect 40-50k in additional fees to get through trial. I have asked my wife to settle this to avoid trial and she has ignored the request. She has also asked that I pay her atty fees. I find this highly insulting because through all of this she has refused to get a job - stating that she has always stayed home with the kids so she will continue.

In the mean time we continue to live together - sleeping in the same bed - I guess because I continue to want our family to stay together. However, even I have finally begun to realize that the confusion this has probably created with the kids may be even more damaging. However, I also find myself not able to have honest conversations with the kids because of what I perceive to be an unhealthy alliance between them and their mother. Over the years I have encouraged the relationship between them and their mother. I am starting to see that that wasn't reciprocated.

My atty continues to recommend that I not leave.

Here are a couple examples of independent and alienating behavior that has happened in the last couple weeks.

Over Fathers day weekend I informed her I planned to take the boys (3,6) with me to my oldest son's (14) tournament over the weekend. She told me "no", i couldn't take them. I took them anyway. On the way out she was crying, giving the little boys hugs and saying over and over to the kids "I'm so sorry this is happening. I'm so sorry this is happening." She showed up (unplanned) at the tournament and took the kids from me and hung out with us for the weekend. A weekend I was hoping to spend with my boys was thwarted by her - it was spent watching her play with the boys.

Over the fourth of july I had planned on taking the four minor kids to take my parents house (out of state). All four of the kids (even my 4 yo) were told my her to inform me of "their desire not to go". I told my son (14) he was going to go anyway to see his grandparents. She went on (in front of our son) about how my parents "don't give a [censored]" about our kids, etc. because they don't call. She encouraged him to run away instead of coming with me - which he did. When I called him and told him he needed to come back and get in the car to leave or my next call would be to the police he texted his mom and she told him not to worry about it - that the police would just talk to him but couldn't make him go with me. He eventually returned and I got him in the car and we had fun. On the way out, in front of all the kids, my wife was sobbing loudly - upset because the kids were going with me.

I wasn't told that she took our daughters out of her sport and started looking for new sports. I found out from my daughter - after the fact.

I wasn't told about my youngest dentist appointment. I found out about it afterwards.

I wasn't told about a meeting at my oldest boys school - with the dean. I found out about it by overhearing a conversation in the house. When I asked about the meeting she refused to tell me the time. Luckily I was listening carefully and was able to figure out the time and show up anyway.

She told the kids it was "my fault she had to get a job because I'm hiding money."

She is telling her friends and the kids that I had an affair with someone who used to be a friend of our family. Now my kids won't talk to this friend. I never had an affair - not even close.

I also heard (third hand) that my wife "has a gold mine in hidden accounts". I have no way of knowing if that's true.

I could go on and on.

BTW, SHE has decided to fight the custody evaluation. My atty and I were going back and forth about how hard I should fight it because it is expensive to pull apart a court appointed custody evaluation. SHE made that decision easy because SHE decide that a recommendation that I get the kids every other weekend and one overnight during the week was too much so SHE is going to fight it in court.

I love my kids and my family. I never imagined someone could be like this. Now I'm trying to figure out how to make it the next 5 weeks in the house and how to fight all of this in court.

Sad part is, if she were to make a major change in behavior and commit herself to our family, I would still prefer to work all this out and stay together.

So it's been two months and nothing has really changed.

Since this is the Marriage Builders website, can I ask what MB principles have you applied to the situation?

In other words: okay, you're getting a divorce. Your wife is vehement in her position. Your kids are unfortunate to be in the middle of this sad craziness. We have all that.

We also know that eliminating LB's can strengthen all relationships in a person's life, even in the midst of turmoil. We know that meeting a spouse's emotional needs can lead to them falling in love with us. We know that exposure kills affairs. We know that 15-20 hours of UA restores romantic love. We know about friends and enemies of good communication. We know that POJA leads to healthy negotiations.

Speaking of POJA...

Divorce or no divorce, this is no way to negotiate with your wife. It's no way to set an example for your children about how 2 people come to agreements. Allowing your children to witness a scene with your wife crying and carrying on without trying to find a more agreeable resolution is not helping your children. I would be willing to bet that your kids would rather have skipped the tournament (or even a trip to disney) in order to avoid having to see that scene play out. I'm not condoning her behavior (crying and the things she said were pure manipulation in my view since she really isn't "sorry" or else she would actually do something about it...). But I'm not condoning yours either.

So, SBT, can you tell me if you have been able to apply even one MB concept to your life and your situation in the last 2 months. I would feel much better about this whole thing if you could.

opt

Yes - here you go.

LBs: I have eliminated all LBs that I believe I can. However, her tactics in the divorce have lead to unavoidable conflict. She gets angry that I come home from work mid-afternoons because she feels like I'm checking up on her. There are several reasons I come home early. She has a history of drinking and hiding bottles of alcohol around the house. She has refused to admit this was a problem and get treatment for it - she just says she never had a problem and that she stopped. She has positioned me as an absentee parent. I haven't been but I'm not going to give her more ammunition by working until 6 every day.

ENs: I have tried to meet her emotional needs. She needs to feel valuable, beautiful and wanted. I've been doing the best I know how at this for over two years now in the face of affairs and the divorce. My primary motivation now is to continue to meet those needs up to the divorce being final so that when I'm gone she may realize some day that she misses me. I would have executed a plan B a long time ago but the drugs, alcohol and 5 kids made that impossible as far as I could figure out.

Early in this process we had a few sessions with Steve. The A was still happening at the time. She quit after 3-4 sessions.

I gave you the short version of an attempted negotiation about taking the kids to the tournament. I tried to negotiate hard for her to agree that the boys could come with me. A reasonable person would not have had an issue with it. It was fathers day weekend and I had the opportunity to spend time with the kids. She was not able to articulate any reason the kids couldn't go with me other than it was a change from what she thought was going to happen. Also, keep in mind the dynamics here as well. She has tried to position me as someone who isn't involved and doesn't care about the kids. Thats not true but it's the reality in her head. The kids didn't have any problem with going until their mom was crying and carrying on.

BTW, mixed in all of this I have tried to spend significant time with her. Sometimes she agrees and sometimes she doesn't. Within the last week she would tell me she loves me one day then tell me she her hopes of things changing for the better were smashed because I expressed an interested in attending my son's school meeting. Wanting to attend a school meeting or doctors visit with my kids shouldn't lead to her hopes of our relationship being better being crushed. She flips from love to hate in a matter of minutes and hours and she stays in hate mode for a long time. It usually takes me days and weeks of constant hard work (no LBs, laser focus on her needs, etc.) in order to bring her back from the "hate" mode. She is a very black an white person - absolutely no shades of gray or forgiveness.

I can tell you more but I'm out of time right now. Feel free to fire away.

Also, I did expose the original A to as many people as i could. The A died for a while - then restarted - now I think it is dead. I stopped snooping when it became obvious to me that it was going to be positioned in court as controlling, abusive, lack of boundaries type behavior that would hurt my case. I have no reason to believe the original A is still going on. But I know she never agreed "officially" end all contact with a letter. She just told me she would no longer contact him. Maybe she has or maybe she hasn't. I have no way of knowing and quite honestly there are so many other things in the way of our relationship that I'm not sure I even care right now.

So you don't know if there's an OM or not? Why would snooping hurt your case?

So when will your D be final?

Correct. I don't know. I believe she hasn't been in regular contact with OM but there are a couple of nights in the last 12 months she didn't come home. She had a story (slept at a friends house, etc) but I have no idea what to believe.

Snooping has already been used against me in court. I was portrayed as a jelious, controlling man with no respect for her personal boundaries by her attorney. I lost te judge at that moment. It didn't matter what I did or why I did it. He was upset at me.

The trial is the end of August.

Btw, while I believe there is one OM more important there have been others (although I don't believe physical) including her divorce attorney.

Require her to have psychological testing. Ask for a hair follicle test on her.

Anyone have advice as to how he can prove any of this? She is cunning and convincing. They don't see the real her. What does your attorney say? It is crazy that her word was taken so simply to give her full custody.

She took mmpi test as part of custody evaluation. Nothing significant. She lied her way through a chemical dependency evaluation. I don't know if drugs and alcohol are still a factor. I just know she lied about it in the past and never got treatment.

I still think that holding yourself to the hightest standard will eventually win you the favor of your children. Even if you lose them in the short term, along with everything else.

I believe that MB principles are based on truth and honesty. And that they eventually lead to some sort of salvation when integrated into one's life top to bottom.

With an absence of LB's and attempts to maintain a marital relationship, you can at the very least never look back and say you didn't try. And at the most, the truth will prevail and you will come out with a moral victory, sleeping soundly at night and setting a positive example for your children; hopefully diverting their temptation to be wicked in dishonesty - the example they seem to be getting from their other parent.

opt

I try. I'm not always successful. How do you not LB when you are accused of things you didn't do. Then she talks about how much she is hurt by it. But I never did it in the first place. So I say something like "I'm sorry you feel that way but I really never had an affair.". What I get in return is "there you go telling me I'm wrong again. I just want to be heard and be treated like a human.".

I have learned to leave the part after the "but" off sometimes but at some point I get tired of hearing how I had an affair and how I did this and that when SHE is the one who had multiple affairs (at least one of them physical), drank too much, etc. and won't admit to any of it anymore.". There are times I just can't keep all that inside.

Rant for the day...over.