Stretch, please update us. We've been wondering what's been going on ~

WPG what have you been doing to plan A?
Update us.
Not letting you give up.

ahhh you saw I was online this morning!

Things aren't going well. I catch myself slipping into LBs, and I generally try to remove myself from the situation so I don't LB. He does not allow me to meet any of the intimate ENs other than SF - we occasionally have conversation, but it is not intimate, which cuts out a lot of opportunities for O&H. He really does not seem very interested in what I do day-to-day although I try to continue to communicate with him. I try to meet AD by showing appreciation for the things he does, I meet FS. I am sure I could do better at DS and FC, it has been difficult lately with work (I still have a FT job and now have 2 PT jobs that I work from home) and extended family issues (latest one is my grandma is in the hospital with a broken hip - Dad was an only child so I have her on my plate now - hopefully she is headed to a rehab place closer to home). If I try to show AF he just doesn't respond or turns away. RC is a non-issue. We don't do anything together. I make suggestions, and they are either ignored or turned down. I still work out, try to look nice, etc, but he doesn't comment on my appearance/attractiveness. I try to do little things for him to show him that I'm thinking about him, ask him if he needs anything, etc.

I keep trying to hold out those olive branches, but most of the time they are brushed aside, and it gets harder and harder to hold them back out again.

H has not found a new job yet. He helps with the kids, picks them up from school, helps with homework, and cooks supper for us. I have told him I will support whatever he decides, if he wants to go back to school, if he wants to find a PT job, whatever...that I have a couple of prospects where I could make a little more money and we'd be fine, that I'm willing to do those things for him b/c I know he wasn't happy with his old job.

No UA time together unless we are having SF. Otherwise the closest we come to time together is sitting on opposite ends of the couch, occasionally watching a TV show or movie together...and I know that doesn't count. He doesn't want to spend time with me.

Way back when I talked with Dr. Chalmers in the fall of 2010, and she coached me into a Plan A, she initially set a 6-month time frame. She said if I could not get H on board with recovery, that I would then pretty much have 3 choices: an indefinite Plan A, Plan B, or live with it.

I am finding an indefinite Plan A extremely difficult to continue. Part of me still believes we could have so much more together...but another part of me feels like he hates me, and that he always will.

I think you need to not offer olive branches because that sounds like relationship talk and his ears are closed to that.
And it portrays you as being needy.

Needy is not attractive even if you going the gym as given you a six pack.

UA time. Sit in the middle of the sofa. Stretch out during a movie, rest you feet on him. He accepts that after a few times ask for a foot rub.

Recreation UA is a no deal, so you plan out family recreational time invite BH, he refuses you still follow through. After the days outing and family is sitting together kids can talk about all the fun the had that day. Let BH stew in his mind that why is he being stubborn missing out on family fun.

Be sutle about plan A'ing. Make it appear it's just you being you.

As to having SF enjoy it. Though how about asking for a back rub first to give BH that all contact does not have to be about SF.

Or when BH is on the sofa you get up for a drink and come back an give a light quick shoulder rub.

Fine line between showing a guy you like him and acting desperate.

FT and 2 PT jobs sounds like not enough time in the day for you, BH, and family. Do you need that much money? I don't remember did BH lose his job?

I guess "olive branch" might have been the wrong word - I meant more of inviting him to join me, like asking him to lunch, or if he'd like to go for a run. I mention things that we could do together - the other day I suggested we pick a race to run together in the spring, since both of us are running again. Asked him if he'd be interested in a mini-vacation with the kids next month when they have a break from school - he said yes, and that we could look online for places to stay together over the weekend, but then I spent the weekend in the hospital w/g'ma and we haven't revisited it yet.

Trust me, there is no relationship talk! It's difficult, though, because I feel like by avoiding it we have a huge gaping void in O&H, from both sides.

He did lose his job - he was let go at the end of Sept. last year. The PT jobs I have are teaching classes online, and they do take up a good bit of time, but I haven't been managing my time as wisely as I could be.

So get off MB and get yourselves entered in a race and that mini vacation planned.

All I have to say is you better not comeback here until your home work is done.

WPG,

I felt compelled this weekend to read your forum from beginning to end. I read about half way through and skipped to the end after I realized that I had spend over two hours reading your story. I am amazed at how much we have in common. I know that I am just starting my recovery road but there are so many things that parallel already. I have also gotten a lot of great advice and perspective from people who were helping you along the way.

I know that you feel like giving up, I already feel that way some days and have not even been through half of the things and time that you have been through. My husband seems so very much like yours in shutting down and not showing feelings. I still have so much hope for you though and you give me inspiration to keep going and trying with my husband.

Keep your head up and keep trying. I believe that your husband loves you and will come around. I am going to keep reading your forum for guidance.

fifteen

Thanks, 15...I saw that you had some very good news, w/your H moving home and agreeing to MB. It shames me to admit I am jealous, which shows me that I've still got a long way to go in my own growth.

I am tired of fighting for something that apparently, I am the only one who wants it. I suppose we'll go away on vacation as a family, but family is all I can interest him in. Tried unsuccessfully to schedule a date for tonight...at first he seemed willing, but then I got "I don't know" and I wake up this morning and see he's moved to the couch to sleep. I don't know why, we went to bed at the same time last night.

Maybe he'd have a different story, and say I am not meeting his needs. I am trying. At this point, I am ready for some RH from him. I can accept that he can't get past my infidelity. I need him to tell me that. To tell me, WPG, it's time to hang up the cleats. To tell me, he's never going to fall in love with me no matter what. He77, tell me he's never loved me. That all the things he wrote to me, said to me, were lies. I lied to him, maybe I deserve him to lie to me in return.

I wonder sometimes if he wants to see if I'll have another A. Or maybe he just wants me to be the one to file,so the death of our M is "my fault". (It already IS my fault, though, and I've accepted it, told pretty much anyone who mattered in our lives that it is my fault...) Or it's "secondary gain," and it is giving him some satisfaction knowing I am in pain. I don't know why he is here, when he has no interest in a fulfilling M. It's like we have our old M back, but we could have so much more. It's like he doesn't want more. He's just not willing to do the work.

I don't believe I will ever be enough for him again. None of the things I have to offer can balance out, or make up for, what I did.

It's ironic that I sit on a board that hears cases where lack of good moral character is an issue. The courts have said that one act, if egregious enough, can prove someone does not have good moral character. At issue is, can someone "earn" their good moral character back? The courts have said yes, but case law is vague on exactly what actions, or how long, it takes a person to "earn back" their previously lost good moral character. Personally, I feel like a hypocrite hearing these cases, when my own good moral character was destroyed so dramatically, and in the eyes of my H, I obviously haven't "earned" it back...and each day that passes, seems like I never will.

...one act, if egregious enough, can prove someone does not have good moral character. At issue is, can someone "earn" their good moral character back? The courts have said yes, but case law is vague on exactly what actions, or how long, it takes a person to "earn back" their previously lost good moral character.

I have been sitting here reading this segment for maybe twenty minutes. Leaving aside the disparity between judgment by "the courts", and our stock-in-trade here "judgment by the spouse", and replacing "moral" with "marital", isn't this approximately a summation of what this site (especially the SAA and Recovery boards) attempts to assist the correspondents with?

The accumulated wisdom here has effectively composed a reasonable list of necessary "actions" that WSs must undertake to regain "good marital character". NC-for-life, transparency, accountability, etc, are obvious, and in their own ways, observable and verifiable (testable?). Without ongoing and faithful adherence to those controls, the WS should have no expectation of re-inclusion into the union, as the BS would be well advised to doubt the "substance" as opposed to the "appearance" of the necessary reforms. But accomplishment of the changes by the XWS has almost universally resulted in reconciliation. The only exception I know of to this statement, with the XWS fully complying, and the XBS still deciding there was no benefit in reconciling, would be one in which the ongoing presence of an OC provided a perpetual trigger that was unendurable.

The "how long" for this "spousal rehabilitation" to be completed is the nexus of this discussion, then. "In progress" cannot be an indefinite state, just as "not divorced" does not mean "married", and "armed neutrality" cannot be equated with "at peace". And yet, from your words, it appears "not divorced" appears to be your XBH's preferred state, and that (understandably) does not satisfy you.

It's evident that your opinion about your enforced purgatory is changing. I am ready for some RH from him. I can accept that he can't get past my infidelity. I need him to tell me that. To tell me, WPG, it's time to hang up the cleats. To tell me, he's never going to fall in love with me no matter what. He77, tell me he's never loved me. Are you yet in an internal position to accept the "worst", if the answer is what you have long feared? (The reason "worst" is emphasized is that I would suggest that as "yes, we need to divorce" is supplanted in your mind by, "I want to stay in the state we currently occupy" as the "worst", your answer will become clearer.) At over two-years since d-day, even allowing for XBH's self-imposed exile, the question is arising as to whether and when "in progress" is ultimately discovered to mean "no progress". Would four years suffice? Ten?

The resolution between your two positions is necessary. You claim to desire RH from him. It may be that the spur needed is your providing RH to him.

Would that be a difficult and risky discussion to initiate, without appearing to present deadlines, or leaving yourself open to "Well, this is all your fault!" responses from XBH? Absolutely. But like removing a brain tumor, being afraid of attempting a cure would mean condemning the afflicted body to ongoing debilitation and rapidly degrading quality of life.

ETA: I posted the above before reading your post to WW27. I'm guessing my thoughts were not as radical to your situational evaluation as I might have worried about.

Have you ever read in the Old testement that you should settle a matter with a brother, ( or sister now that women are more than property), outside of court?

Once you are in the courts, its madness, public opinion, the weather that day, who won the game last night, all plays in. Speacially when it come down to matters of the heart.

Why do people still look and hope that someone will be the Messiah? They want someone who is incapable of Sin and hurting them, and of course that is not possible when it comes to humans.

Only you and God know how you have changed, and the courts and correctional system only can point out your faults.

I went for two years waiting for my wife to get into treatment for her drinking, although I knew she was sorry, prayed daily, she really did not do what was asked, but I went back anyway, and tried to rebuild, and in th long run, in her case, it was wrong, because all the denial in the world even with Jesus in her pocket, and her favorite Famous Pastor claiming to understand her, did not stop her from grabbing drugs behind my back,

All the begging, all the pleading, all the promises, were just a need for her to find herself, face herself, and promise herself

The police and courts, arent supposed to forgive, they are supposed to enforce. But Gods law, and forgivness? That is divine.

WPG, I know you have learned, and are wiser from this experience, but this is your BH weight to bear. Our hearts do not need to be turned towards forgiveness, His choice

No, NG, you're hitting pretty close to my current mindset. In fact, I might should change the current post subject header to "I think I'm done." I had read one of stretch's updates a while back and it stuck with me, where he'd either told his WW or his intended response to her "I'm going to file for D" statements was something to the effect of "For the love of God, please do it and end this torture..."

I can meet my H's needs. I can do it happily. In fact, I want to meet his needs, more than anything. But I can no longer deal with my own needs being starved. I handled that unethically, imorally, three years ago by entering into an affair. I will not do so again. I appreciate what he has done - is doing - to be a father to the girls. I appreciate how he has helped my mother since my father died. But emotionally, I'm spent. There are many things that have happened over the last few months since he has been home, and I have refrained from posting because I've worried they were petty complaints, and I've tried hard not to LB and do a continued Plan A. I worried he might still read here, and that this was not an outlet to vent.

To be honest, at this point I would rather be alone than to be so unloved.

I thought that the whole moral character-marital character comparison was quite appropriate. We heard a case where the young man was accused of falsifying something, and then lying about it. He continued to lie, even when confronted by his superiors.

I sat there, listening to this young man, just as earnest-appearing as he could be, smart, capable, squeaky-clean...as he continued to deny responsibility for what he did. CP, you don't know how close you are to saying how it's "madness, public opinion, the weather that day, who won the game last night...and the courts and correctional system only can point out your faults."

I sit there, as a woman who bears my own battle scars, and I look at these individuals who come before us and I badly want to give people a second chance...maybe more than most, I understand how one mistake, one slip, can ruin - or at the very least, alter irrevocably - the course of one's life.

But the one thing I wanted this young man to say - was to simply say, it was my fault. I lied, I made things up, to cover my azz. Something that it took me months to say, myself. And yet he couldn't say it. As a result, his future in this line of work is finished, before it even started, really.

As you said, CP, for these individuals, it's not my job to forgive...it's my job to enforce rules. That said, I've had opportunities, for others so accused, to argue for a second chance. Maybe that is not something I would have been able to do, had I not truly known how desperately someone can want or need a second chance.

But for those who get punished, I do feel like a hypocrite.

Yes, it will be a difficult discussion to initiate, but it is necessary, and it is coming. It has to. Lately it seems we spend the evenings dodging each other, one upstairs, one downstairs. We were supposed to be on a date tonight. FTR, he said I was snoring last night. Definitely not outside the realm of possibility (lol), but rare for him to go sleep on the couch b/c of it.

A very wise man (NG) once told me that my biggest fear should not be Hate but Indifference. It sounds like this is exactly where your husband is at.

Have you printed up some of the things that you have posted on here and shared them with your H? Have you written him a letter expressing how emotionally starved you are? I am sure that you have but I just feel that even if he is indifferent right now there has to be something.

I guess it is the hopeful side of me and no one on this site can truly know your exact situation even with all of the things you have shared with us.

Just know that no matter what happens, you have done all that you can do. You have to continue to work on you and being the best person that you can be with or without your husband.

I truly wish you the best no matter what happens.

Indifference.

We took a long road trip as a family last week (over 20 hrs in the car each way) and I had moments where I stewed over the A and didnt do a good job of hiding it. The kids didnt see it, but she sure did. We had a bad evening on the vacation when I chose to bring up the A. And, again on the way home, I had bad moments of muted anger.

She asked me if I hated her. I said I never hated her but hated what she did, how long she did it, how many times she did it, and why she did it.

She asked me if I was leaving her. I said I dont know. Im still angry 9 months later and dont want to spend the rest of my life angry. I told her that leaving probably wont end my anger so it would be better to stay and learn to accept what happened.

She told me that she would understand if I left and she did not deserve me. She begged me not to though. That she regrets the lifelong pain she has given me and herself. She has nothing to show for it but a wounded man and little dignity.

She said she feels my anger and anxiety but has learned to roll with it. SHE THEN SAID SOMETHING I DIDNT EXPECT: if I didnt have the anger and anxiety then she would be concerned about apathy and indifference. The anger tells her Im battling thru the images of her A and she has hope I will fully forgive her someday.

I did apologize to her about bringing up the A. We messed around a whole bunch on vacation and that always makes things better for me.

I guess, WG, indifference might be a phase I may enter at some point. And, I think she'll have the feelings you describe if I do.

By the way, I spent too much time thinking about running into OM somewhere and breaking his nose. Not for doing my wife, she was fully compliant and responsible for her actions. But for entering my childrens life and choosing to stay there while dating their mother. That is really the essence of my anger at him.

Anger = negative LB balance

Indifference = no LB account at all

IMO, and I speak from personal experience, once some BS become indifferent there is nothing will change it. Romantic love is totally off the table by then. There is no longer any BS LB to fill.

WS who trickle-truth or otherwise continued to lie, even if by omission, are the ones who most often experience this irrevocable closing of BS accounts. WS becomes in BS eyes a person BS would not have been attracted to way back in the first place.

I never fail to find it interesting how clueless WS are, and seem to remain so, in every respect. This is not rocket science.

Absolutely nothing personal. Just a thought. What if WS and FWS only hung out with other WS and FWS? Would the rest of us be safer? Calmer? Perhaps WS and FWS would generally feel better too?

That being said, I don't think this particular BH is completely indifferent. Yet.

He is totally conflicted.

He�s still not getting something he needs, and he may not know what it is nor how to find it.

I don't think this particular BH is completely indifferent. Yet.
He is totally conflicted. He�s still not getting something he
needs, and he may not know what it is nor how to find it.

Assuming you're right, what does WPG do to draw that out from
him? She has been nothing if not diligent and persistent.

I do not know. What has she tried - other than the obvious? Has either of them talked to the MB counseling center? That would be my first recommendation. Especially for the BH.

I have a strong suspicion I went through most everything this BH is going through. I came out the other side (took me 5 years) indifferent. And the stages and steps that took me there are in hindsight pretty obvious. There were many narrow windows of opportunity FWW could have stopped my progression to indifference, but she missed every one of them.

Have they done the ENQ together? Has she taken it for him if he will not? Maybe BH thinks the only reason she wants him now is for FS. Or for the children. Things that are, in his mind, not at all about him.

He probably does not believe any of her denials or assertions.

He is testing her resolve. For that matter he is testing his own resolve.

She should demonstrate by repetitive actions she wants to get right with God. This BH experienced a crisis of faith due to her adultery that may have been more severe than his marriage crises.

She could evaluate every EN individually to see if BH still has that EN. And then she should ask him in writing and then in person how to best start meeting it.

This BH is lost and sick to his core. Or he was for a long time if he is not now nearly numb.

The list goes on.


(Apology to WPG and BH for discussing as if you were something growing in a Petri dish � just easier typing this way.)

I had 2 sessions with Jennifer back in Sept. and Oct. of 2010. She was coaching me on how to encourage H to get on board with MB. Unfortunately, nothing worked. You can read on his brief thread that MB counseling was recommended to him, but his reasoning was that he'd already talked to 2 therapists (one MC when he believed I'd had "only" and EA, and one Christian counselor after I admitted to the PA; he then went back to the 1st counselor on an individual basis for a while) and the pastor, and he was tired of talking about it. Anyway Jennifer coached me into a Plan A, which I've essentially been in ever since, and it's pretty much on its last legs. I also did a poly and a DNA test on the children.


What do you think were some signs of these windows of opportunity that she missed?


We did the ENQ in July or August of 2010, before I started posting. O&H was his #1 need, which seems pretty typical for a BS. AD was also in the top 5, I think it was #5. The other "top 5" were FS, DS, and FC. He did not rank C, AF, RC, AS or SF as being important. Mine were almost opposite - AF, C, AD, are my top 3. FS was not a top five for me. I know EN's change, but I can't get him to do a new one when he's essentially checked out of the M.


No, he doesn't. He has told me this, as recently as last summer. About a month before Dad died, he had read an email exchange between me and my girlfriends, and misunderstood what I was saying, and told me that I "wasn't worth it." I tried to explain it to him but I don't think he was interested, nor did he believe me. I think in my mind that was kind of the point that I lost the will to keep fighting. I kept trying, but something changed in me.

And then Dad died, and I had my own crisis of faith that I have not been able to recover from. I don't know how to "get right with God" anymore. After H left, I prayed for him to come home, for God to soften his heart. I prayed for God to help me become the wife, mother, and woman I was supposed to be, that I had failed to become. I did all I could to continue to meet his needs, even when it was painful and people IRL told me I was an idiot. When he wanted to have SF with me, I was willing, even after he told me it was "just sex, no strings attached." When Dad died, it was like this light inside me just completely went out.

I don't just want him for FS, or for the children. He lost his job a month after Dad died, and moved back home. He gets unemployment, but it's a fraction of his old salary and is probably nearing the end of the benefits. He was never interested in managing the finances, only for the 4 months of time I trickle-truthed him. I pay all the bills. Yes, he should be a part of the childrens' lives, and I appreciate the help he gives me with the children, but I managed to deal with being a single mom while he was gone. I learned while he was gone that I could handle things on my own if I needed to.

Why I want him has nothing to do with the money he makes or does not make. I want him because of who he is. When I first met him, he was so different from anyone else I'd dated. He didn't use me for sex, like so many others (POSOM included). He made me feel safe. He grounded me in a way I hadn't been before. My life was on a downward slide, but loving him, him loving me, it gave me focus and strength that I was lacking. I admired him for the way he had come through adversity, beating his own demons. I knew he had been wounded before, but I didn't care, I knew he was "the one" for me. His smile can light up a room, chase the cobwebs from my soul. And loving him for so long, watching him grow as a father, I see his capacity for love, and what a huge heart he has.

I lost my way. I hardened my heart against him and I gave his wife to someone else, without giving him a chance to fight for me. I can accept that I have to pay the consequences for that. I can accept losing him. I can't accept both of us being miserable forever. If all I bring him is pain, he deserves so much more than that. He deserves much more than me.

I've got more I could say, but have to get to a meeting.

There are several triggers in your post I thought I might mention. For his sake. This is how I take them anyway, and I bet he does too.

��he had read an email exchange between me and my girlfriends, and misunderstood what I was saying, and told me that I "wasn't worth it." I tried to explain it to him but I don't think he was interested, nor did he believe me. I think in my mind that was kind of the point that I lost the will to keep fighting. I kept trying, but something changed in me.� Same old, same old. Appears you have always talked or written about him like this, from the beginning. He no longer cares, which is a good thing � for him.

�I knew he had been wounded before, but I didn't care,�� And then you wounded him again anyway.

�I gave his wife to someone else, without giving him a chance to fight for me.� Two negatives make a positive? You forget you took a solemn vow. He should not have had to �fight� for you. You sound like a prize in a contest, a fight to the death and OM triumphed. OK, fine, if that makes you feel important. Maybe he is happy for you too.

�I learned while he was gone that I could handle things on my own if I needed to.� Good for you. But your adultery proves you never needed him in the first place. Nothing changes here in his view.

No wonder he is depressed. (Have you figured out he is clinically depressed yet?)

So, what do you consider his future to hold?

Wait. A better question is, what does he think his future looks like?

He is not going to trust any woman again. So, most likely no other marriage. Or if he does marry it will be one without love and not last. (Second M�s have a worse prognosis than first M�s.)

A weekend father at best.

A menial job. (I bet your adultery was a major factor negatively affecting his performance in his previous job. It sure happened that way to me.)

Child support essentially going to whoever your next lover is.

But he makes so little money now. He fails his children as he failed you.

Afraid to make close friends.

Living alone in a dump.

Estranged from and not trusting God.

Suicide.

Depressing, huh?


My brain itches. I don�t normally post to WW or FWW. I am probably doing it all wrong.


eta: �I know EN's change, but I can't get him to do a new one when he's essentially checked out of the M.� Take it for him, as if you are him. Done all the time by BS for WS who won�t take it.

Think your BH would post to me, or another BH in similar circumstances? Or email us?