Indie, nobody is more of a proponent of the Harleys's, than yours truly, but his advice must be tailored for each individual case and marriage. For example, in my case, we (my wife and I)have both agreed that the policy of radical honesty is for BOTH of us, and covers everthing, past, present and future. Another example of tailoring to fit, is that we also agreed that we want more than 20 hours of "us", time. See where I'm going with this?

I'll repeat what I stated to Doro's BH;

The total layout of the situation, doing a cut and run is very attractive.

However!

Learning what it takes to actually have a marriage is going to be hard work. It doesn't matter if they remain married to each other, or divorce and eventually move on. Creating the habits set forth by MB principals takes dedication and patience.

Short marriage, both young, no kids... not a lot of ties.


I argue that it is a fantastic show of character to put everything into making it work when it would be so easy to just throw your hands up in the air and quit.

It is in her BH's hands to go forward, and it is in her hands to keep it moving forward.

MM,

The MB program is NOT to be tailored to each couple's "unique" situation. It is a very specific program to be followed as closely as possible. It is applied with flexability. My H and my M is nothing like yours and your wife's. Our decisions are nothing like yours. If you had really read and studied, you would understand that the policy of radical honesty (past, present, and future) is always for both spouses. And if a couple wants to spend 20 hours or more of UA time, then it is a topic to be agreed upon under the policy of joint agreement.

Secondly, regarding your other posts, I do believe that a person can change at any time, if he/she decides to and then follows through. My H did this. It appears to me as though Doro is doing this. I think she is a far better person than she was when she began to post on this forum.

Doro, stay positive. You are doing the right things. And BTW, you did have two affairs. A drunken ONS IS an affair.

AM

MM, have you read this thread in its entirety? Doro was VERY foggy at the beginning of this thread. She has made progress, and it is good for HER to make these changes whether her BH decides that she isn't worth it.

Doro, I cringed when you said what you did about your affairs because it seemed like you were dismissing them, because of their duration. They are exactly as harmful as any other affair that comes to these boards. I am hoping that you were only trying to point it out to MM because of the way his post sounded, and not that you were trying to dismiss what you had done.

Your affairs were and ARE very devastating to your BH. I think a HUGE part of you wants to get started on recovery, because you feel like YOU are ready, and that's why you told your BH. Thing is, your BH is still reeling, and he isn't sure that he wants to start again with you.

Do YOUR work, come here often, get yourself that "F" and maybe, one day, your BH will decide that you ARE worth it. He must love you a lot to even consider recovery with him. My WH had one affair(albeit a long one), and my friends tell me things like, "Once a cheater always a cheater." I am CERTAIN that your BH's friends are telling him to run, and a lot of people here would have run from a WS such as you, but that doesn't mean that you two can't make this work, and I think that's why YOU'RE here and why your BH is still here.

Doro, remember that sometimes, posters like MM will help you because in defending yourself, you may learn something about your thoughts, and some of your fogginess will come through, so we can help you.

No, those are MB plans which apply to everyone. Radical honesty is supposed to apply to both and 20 hours UA time is not enough for recovery from an affair. Those are Dr Hs basic plans in all cases they aren't tailored at all.

Armymama, "Flexibility" or "tailored"....potato, potahto. You are arguing semantics.

I don't think it is a question of semantics. MB is a framework, a structure. The example you gave (PORH) is part of the structure and not something that is tailored. It is a requirement for both spouses for a good marriage. Flexability comes in with the outcomes of POJA. My H and I have very different negotiated agreements from you and your wife. The POJA is not flexible, but the negotiated agreement certainly is. When people have the impression they can "tweak" the MB program for their situation (not spending UA time, not taking extraordinary precautions to prevent an affair), they are risking failure.

AM

Scot, I never said that Doro hasn't improved herself, because as we all know, she couldn't get much worse. What I'm trying to get through to her and her husband, is that regardless of everything that they do or don't do, they can NEVER un-make the affairs. The cheating will always be a part of their history, and will always be present, for the rest of their married lives. The un-spoken, but ever-present. Considering how short a time that they have been together, and how even that time was be-fouled by her cheating, and also considering how much future work it will take to even GET to a place where they can BEGIN to think of the future. Is it worth it? The Law of diminishing returns.

AM, what is the difference between "tweaking " and "tailoring"? Of course you are arguing semantics, or maybe you just want to argue? LOL

MM

NO TWEAKING!!! Just follow the MB principles.

AM

MM, who are WE to say though? The odds may be stacked against them, but it doesn't mean that they don't need to try, if they want to that is. Either way, Doro needs to improve herself. I believe that Doro wanted to show that she is willing to do the hard work, and that she was changing, and she wanted to ensure that she wasn't making any wayward mistakes, ie trickle truth. She made enough mistakes already, and she is trying to make amends, which is more than a lot of waywards, and for that she gets credit, but she knows that she's no where near done.

Quit shouting!! AM. Why are you being mean to me?

Hmmmmm, because I feel as though you are not listening.

Too much t/j here for me. Doro, how are you doing today?

AM

I'm not sure I do, MM. [By the way, I'm not yelling or charged up, so I hope you won't read my comments that way. This is a quiet coversation over a cup o' coffee, as far as I'm concered.]

If you've read this thread front to back, then you've seen it pointed out many times to Doro that her situation -- the multiple affairs, the brief marriage, the alcohol, the long time spent apart at the beginning of the marriage -- all those factors give her & her BH a much tougher than average hill to climb here. I think she's already clear on that, but if not, I'd credit some of your posts for illustrating it even more clearly. She oughtta at least thank you for that. (BTW, the alcohol is a real wildcard. I think I've read Harley say that if a person's a genuine alcoholic, all bets are off & MB steps can't work, or something to that effect. I have no insight on whether or not that's the case here.)

But Doro already knows how to throw in the towel. She's proven that. At least twice. That's not what she's asking for advice on. And isn't that her husband's call to make anyway?

Some BSs aren't ready to make that call just yet, not even a month or two out from d-day. Here was one:

~Sept.13

~Sept.8

~Aug.31

Would you have said your wife was "good wife material" on the day you walked in on her? You didn't seem sure about it 3 or 4 weeks after that. And you weren't wrong not to be sure. And here it is a month after Doro has told her husband about the 2nd affair. No one walked in on her. No one even busted her 2nd-hand, the way my OW's husband's PI busted her & therefore me. Doro may just have more character than your wife had when she started recovery. Certainly more than I had on the morning when I & my wife started ours.

Her H has been sucker-punched, twice, and he's not sure what he wants. He's said earlier that he still loved her, and that he's conflicted, and that he's not sure.

She's listening to Steve Harley & getting that professional advice you suggested. Now, I'll grant you, maybe she's too weak-minded to stick it out for the long haul. Maybe it's taking her longer than it does for some folks to de-fog & realize that he may not be sure what he wants for a while. Maybe just what she needs is some virtual, online Gunny screaming in her ear to "QUIT, honey-cakes, 'cuz you got no CHARACTER!" in order to motivate her. I guess we can't rule that out.

Or maybe based on your experience, you could share with her what you think her husband might be feeling. His doubts. His fears. His anger. That's info that she could use to do right by him.

But until his doubts, fears, anger & a healthy regard for self-preservation draw him to a conclusion that it's time to call it a day on his marriage, as far as I'm concerned, she doesn't even have any right to quit on him again. No more so than your wife had any right to quit on you, back when you weren't sure.

If you want to tell him that he's making a mistake by taking time to sort his thoughts out, he's got an old thread here somewhere, too.

Doro, you know whom you need to be focusing on, right?

I certainly wasn't dismissing either of the instances. When I read what MM wrote, in my head it seemed like he was saying I spent two of the three years we were married having affairs or something like that. Obviously, he didn't say that specifically, but it's sort of how I read it.
I really am trying to do my work. And you are right on- I know many of my BH friends are telling him to run. Others just want him to make the decision that is healthiest for him.

I know...it's hard not to feel attacked, especially b/c he isn't even someone that has been in dialogue with me from the beginning. He sort of just jumped in and let me have it....and since he's giving me advice that directly contradicts what Steve Harley is telling me, I've mind to ignore most of what he says, and pick out what may be applicable.

Yeah...I'm pretty clear on that- I know what I'm facing (to an extent), but I just can't give up.
"Genuine Alcoholic"? Not sure what your definition is of that. Was never a drink every day sort of person- or even every week for that matter. Didn't drink by myself or ever get into legal trouble. It was always very social for me. That being said, when I did drink- I drank A LOT. And when under the influence, I am a very bad decision maker (hence my presence here).

No drinking is on my EP list, and a few days after I made my list I was thinking that 'wow, that might be pretty tough at times', b/c alcohol is just so pervasive in our lives. It seems that many things revolve around it(dinner/parties/weddings/etc). So I thought that maybe I should go to AA to get support for this- and to meet new people. I don't know many people who don't drink. Would I be able to never drink w/o going to AA? Who knows? Maybe. Probably. But I think it wouldn't be as good of an experience for me(the whole sober-life experience), and I maybe wouldn't have ever realized that just b/c I didn't drink by myself every day, doesn't mean that I don't have issues with alcohol.

The first A, I can say almost certainly wouldn't have happened if I wouldn't have been drunk. The 2nd...I don't know-Alcohol started it, but it could've had the potential to start without it. It is just very important that I don't mess this EP up, so I want to do everything I can. While it was a contributing factor, I don't want to get caught up in the thinking, "Welp, I'm sober now...that's all I need to change". Because I realize that it's not the only issue. Just one facet.
Okay, first- thank you for the laughs. Everytime I go through and read "QUIT Honey-cakes..." I laugh out loud. Very much needed. To be honest, I, by myself, AM probably too weak-minded. But I'm praying for the strength to keep going. I don't believe this is something you can do without God. So I'm taking it one day at a time. I understand that it's going to take a while for my BH to figure out what he wants. I sincerely hope that I'm not making it seem like I think he should just up and decide right this instant. Obviously, there is a part of me that wants him to decide this instant- but that's the very impatient, selfish part of me. I don't think it would be the best for either of us if he did that.

Regarding the online gunny 'motivation'. I'm getting enough of that sort of 'motivation' from BH...so I'm just gonna go ahead and politely decline any from MM.
Reading what other BH think/feel and have gone through, helps me a lot to really understand how my BH is feeling. I know I'll never be able to grasp it fully, but it definitely gives me a better pictures.

I'm focusing on making changes in my own life, and loving BH and meeting his ENs. Trying to meet his ENs, without worrying about mine, is definitely a change. As you can probably imagine, in the past, I was generally more concerned about mine. (shocker, I know).

Bingo. As someone who has been quit on, I can tell you that it hurts more than the affair to be abandoned so you have to deal with the fall out alone. When a wayward gets that whole 'I've done something so bad that I must run away and hide' mentality - it is just the most selfish attitude that it is possible to take.

Doro, I don't need to tell you this as you've been very committed but you must hang in there with no thought of reward. You have to clean up your mess.

I can tell you from my own experience that your BHs pain would be sharper if you didn't give your marriage the respect it deserved with selfless hard work at this most critical juncture.

Adultery leaves an odd wound in that the person who inflicted it is best suited to mending it.

Of course, BSs such as myself who must sew their own wounds can do so, and do it well. But it isn't as good and you have the insult added to the injury to recover from also.

You inflicted wounds twice and you made a right hash of healing the first.

But you persevered. You sought for knowledge and did not give up till you found answers. When that happened you responded to that advice and gave your BH the first of many medical attentions using truth.

I don't see anything to suggest that you are unfit to carry on the very necessary work you began that day.

And if you quit, it would be a travesty.

Was sort of ignoring MB yesterday. Doing ok, thank you for asking. Yesterday morning, BH and I had our first joint session with Steve. It went pretty well, I think. Steve told us that the ideal scenario is to discover how to have a mutually enjoyable relationship with your first wife/husband. He asked BH if he had noticed any change in me. BH said yes.

We have another joint session next week. BH is gone for next 3 days visiting his brother.

It is selfish. And of course I've thought of running away d/t my shame- I can't imagine any WS wouldn't think of it, if at least fleetingly. But I've thought about a lot of things in my life that I don't plan on doing.

What's all this talk about quitting??? I'm sticking around, not only because I agree with you that it is the right thing to do, but because I want to! I'm glad you don't think I should just give up.

Well, Doro, of course you don't want to listen to my advice, because it's not what YOU want to hear. YOU want to let bygones be bygones, YOU want your husband to forgive you, YOU want the marriage, to continue, with your husband's agreement. What's in it for him? For better or worse, your marriage, will be defined by your cheating and selfish behavior, right? How would you feel if the shoe was on the other foot? What if he asked you to continue in a marriage where you will have the realization that you are getting sloppy thirds. Pardon my harshness, but that is what you are asking him to do, isn't it? I fully realize that you are doing a lot to make yourself a better person, and I applaud you for your work, but does that entitle you to anything at all? You were unfaithful with two other men, in three years, what will happen in 10, 20 or more? If you truly love your husband as much as you say you do, wouldn't you want the best for him? Wouldn't you want him to have a good , honest , faithful wife? You already know that you aren't that kind of wife.