grimreaper, you are correct that any marriage you would be in you will be unhappy if you continue to approach marriage in the same way. The issue is not the person but that you lack the skills to negotiate in a way that sustains the romantic love in your marriage. It is obvious that you have fallen out of love. And you would fall out of love in the next marriage too if you do the same things. The solution is to fall BACK in love with your wife and create an integrated lifestyle that will sustain such a lifestyle.

ALL good relationships require change over time. ALL of them.

One important change is for us to learn to stop doing things that bother our spouse. It's not control for a wife or husband to expect their mate to refrain from doing things that aren't good for BOTH of them.

Women do not want a doormat that will just cave to her when she raises her voice. YOU need to stand up for yourself and let her know that you will not tolerate her talking down to you, snapping at you, demeaning you, yelling, etc.

It's really easy. All you ahve to say is, "I would appreciate it if you wouldn't....." If she keeps it up, "I'll be glad to have this discussion with you when you are not raising your voice to me. I love you." And walk away.

It's time for you two to sit back down and to the Love Busters questionaire and get to spending 20 hours of UA time together.

I don't have a problem with the idea of making changes or adjusting to changes as long as I can see why it is necessary or worthwhile. However, I think in some cases marriage partners will never agree with each other about some things. This doesn't necessarily need to ruin their marriage as long as they can live with some of the differences and make some compromises if necessary. Of course, my wife does not think this way at all; she is very stubborn and if I ever disagree with her then she typically doesn't want to hear about or try to understand why. So I get tired of fighting with her and just let her be right in her own mind but because decisions have basically been made for me by her without any consideration for how I feel about it then I usually end up resenting it.

For example, before I was married I liked to get drunk sometimes on weekends but I knew she didn't like this so I basically thought that I needed to stop doing this as a condition of being married to her. At the time, I thought I should stop drinking anyway and that I wouldn't miss it that much plus I didn't think it was worth breaking up with her over it. Since then, in the handful of times I have been drunk around her she has always made it a point to express her disapproval in a very mean-spirited, judgmental, and disrespectful way and one time she even dumped my whiskey down the sink and threatened to leave me.

So now we never have any alcohol in the house and the thought of telling her I want to have a few drinks terrifies me. Most of the time it doesn't bother me but during our last few vacations together it really started to get to me and instead of enjoying the time together I was mostly thinking about how I can't drink at all anymore because of her and all I have to look forward to if nothing changes is basically just a lifetime of being under my wife's thumb. Don't get me wrong, I understand that alcohol abuse is not healthy and I don't really want to go back to the same way I was before but I still think it should be my choice to decide how much I drink or not.

GR, the problem with your approach is that you want her to tolerate your thoughtless behavior when you know it upsets her. The real question is why you would engage in thoughtless behavior when you know it upsets her? Doing so shows you dont care about her. You are ruining your marriage with such an approach yet you aver that such things shouldn't ruin a marriage, yes, thoughtless, independent behavior ruins marriages.

A better way is to find solutions that make you both happy. Neither one of you should gain at the others expense. The policy of joint agreement could solve such problems, but I think we have already told you this several times. Are you reading up on how to negotiate such solutions?

And of course it is "your choice" to drink or not. But that misses the point. It is also your choice to have an unhappy marriage where you force your decisions on your wife whether she likes it or not. Such an approach means you erode the love in your marriage.

Also, I think if alcohol is more important to you than your wife's feelings that you probably have a drinking problem. That would explain why she once threatened to leave you and why you have such independent behavior.

You are an alcoholic, aren't you?

I agree, it sounds like OP may be an alcoholic.

She married you with the belief that you didn't have a drinking problem correct? Now it is to the point where the idea of drinking alcohol is something your marriage now conflicts over.

A lot of alcoholics write this off as saying "... well, I'm an adult and he/she is too controlling".

You said you couldn't enjoy your vacation because you wanted to drink and basically thought you would live life under her thumb? Those aren't the words of someone 'stifled' under an oppressive marriage, those are the words of an alcoholic. Please don't try and convince yourself otherwise, like most alcoholics try to rationalize.

I don't believe I'm an alcoholic because it seems like most alcoholics drink all the time. I was more of an occasional binge drinker; it was definitely unhealthy simply because of how much I would drink at one time but it didn't really interfere with my work or everyday life the way it sounds like it typically does for alcoholics.

Alcoholism is not defined by how much or how often, but by what happens when they drink. Most alcoholics don't drink all the time and most hold down jobs, etc and maintain their lives. When the people in your life think you have a problem, you usually do.

What stands out to me is how important alcohol is to you. It is more important than your wife's feelings and so important that you would have fights with her.

Any sane person would just stop drinking if it made their spouse so unhappy. You sound like an alcoholic to me.

Melody, an alcoholic with 27 years sobriety.

If you have to drink to enjoy your vacation, you probably have a problem. Normal people don't have to drink to enjoy their vacations.

And how would you enjoy your vacation if you are fighting with your wife? That makes no sense.

The perception of the alcoholic being some wino that can't keep down a job/family because of their constant drink certainly exists but the truth is that the average working guy, stay at home mother, grandmother, teenager can be an alcoholic.

Your marriage is at risk of divorce over the issue of alcohol. You do realize it is an alcoholic behaviour to choose alcohol when it greatly upsets your spouse? It's not "normal" for alcohol to cause such issues - it's certainly normal for it to happen in a marriage with an alcoholic.

It DOES interfere with your daily life at this point, does it not?

I strongly suggest heading to AA at this point because when alcohol causes problems in your life, it IS alcoholism. Binge drinking is just as much of an alcoholic as a daily drinker.

There's no question this is not normal; I definitely feel like the whole situation is sick and wrong but not necessarily for the reasons you think. Basically if I am an alcoholic then everyone that ever drinks sometimes and doesn't want to stop is an alcoholic because I know for a fact that I can control myself as well as anyone when I really want to. The truth is that if I could get away with drinking one beer in front of my wife now and then I would still want to do it even though I wouldn't get any kind of buzz out of it simply as an act of defiance against what I consider to be unreasonable expectations (selfish demands).

That's why I think the real issue here is mostly about control and lack of respect (disrespectful judgments) compounded by religious differences. We are both Mormon but we don't go to church anymore. However, she still believes in the Mormon Church but I don't believe in it at all anymore. Most of the time this is not really an issue but in this case I think it has definitely contributed to my feelings of resentment about being told what to do and her self-righteous attitude about this because if she tells people I was drinking then most of them would take her side and say I was out of line including my own family.

Basically, I think she should understand and respect the fact that I have my own beliefs and values independent of the Mormon Church and her own beliefs and values. She basically thinks that drinking is stupid and there is no good reason why I should ever want to drink but I think that if I like it and it makes me feel better sometimes and isn't causing any obvious problems then that is already reason enough to justify it. At this point it is hard to imagine even having a meaningful conversation about it when we are so far apart in our views and unlikely to ever agree with each other in this case.

When you were courting her and asking her to marry you...I presume you were willing to not drink and it really wasn't a problem to you. You were in love with her and willing to do what it took to make sure she loved you.

The solution isn't about her "understanding" or anything. The solution is falling in love again. In doing so...she may surprise you too and be willing to poja you having ONE DRINK or something now and again. But I wouldn't try poja'ing that for a long time.

You only get one wife...the one you CHOOSE doesn't like you drinking alcohol.

Mr. W

This Dr Harley quote comes to mind when I read your post:

"Isn't it interesting how someone can miss the point that mutual care in marriage is the only kind of care that makes sense? When your husband tells you that he wants you to care for him by suffering so he can have what he wants, he doesn't understand that this expectation means that he doesn't care about you. And that's the point." Dr Bill Harley


But you don't want to stop, that is the point. You contradict yourself by saying it is not important to you, apparently it is important enough to upset your wife. It is more important than your wife's feelings. It is so important that you would fight over a stinking BEVERAGE and make your wife miserable. Sorry, but someone who wants to drink THAT BAD has a problem.


Lack of respect would extend to you doing things that you KNOW are very upsetting to her yet you continue to do them. Your path is causing incompatibility and resentment in your marriage.


Ok, but don't you see that this is what you are doing? You want to be able to tell her what to do by forcing your drinking on her.


In other words, she should understand and accept that you want to commit thoughtless behavior with no consequences. Unfortunately, that tactic has been a disaster for you and you don't seem to get that.

A happy marriage is contingent upon INTERDEPENDENT behavior, not the independent behavior you propose. You already know that doesn't work yet here you are trying to sell it to us. You insist that you have the option of changing her but she doesn't get the option of changing you.

Did you know that this program typically doesn't work for alcoholics? The reason is because they simply can't give up their independent behavior. I see you struggling terribly with this.

Here's a fantastic radio clip that the Harleys talk about how alcohol affects a marriage.

Radio Clip on Alcohol

Good catch, Brainhurts!!

Thanks.

Dr. Harley says exactly what you've been trying to share with grimreaper.

"Am I problem to my spouse while I'm drinking?" "If you are, then stop drinking"

Only an alcoholic would risk breaking up his marriage over a beverage. So it is not believable when you say alcohol is meaningless to you and that you only want the occasional ONE beer. Do you ever hear of people risking their spouse's unhappiness and enduring fights and the end of their marriage over ORANGE JUICE? It is so meaningful to you that you have repeatedly risked your relationship with your wife. That is not how normal drinkers act.

I recognize this is as alcoholic thinking and I am sure the normal drinkers are scratching their heads wondering why you would even consider sacrificing your marriage over a stupid beer. That is NUTS.

I skimmed back over your thread and you have been given all the information you need to transform your marriage. Now it is up to you to take it. I can't think of anything more to add. I suspect, however, that your goal was to come here and get validation for your drinking and other independent behaviors.. Continued fishing for answers you like won't change the answers we give.

Grim, you are getting some tough love on this forum but stick with it, the end result will be well worth it. If your wife comes here she will likely get some tough love, too. Hearing the truth is the first step back to a great marriage.

The thing that makes this sound like alcoholism is that you are choosing a drink, a beverage that you consume, over your wife's happiness, the human that you committed to forever. Humans are more important that an beverage and a lifetime commitment is more important than a 30 minute buzz, wouldn't you agree?

Your wife reacts strongly to one drink becuase it is independent behavior.

Some people think that there is a degree of independent behavior that should be acceptable. The problem with that logic is that 1) You are saying it is okay to upset your spouse, and 2) it is impossible to figure out where to draw the line. If you wife was sleeping with every man on your block, would that be okay? What if she was just kissing them? What about just flirting?

So, you might admit that your wife has a right to speak up if you have 20 drinks, what about 15, what about 10 ... and why not 1? It's an arbitrary line you are trying to draw. And, how is she supposed to believe that you will allow her to have input about not having 15 drinks if she can't even have input about 1?

The more that you make decisions with your wife's feelings in mind, the less that she will have to exhibit controlling behaviors. She doesn't have to act controlling if you decide what is the best course of action together.