Wow. So if something naturally appeals to you, you should be allowed to do it in spite of how it makes your wife feel? Some people naturally like stealing, or raping. Or on the other hand, I naturally like to overeat chocolate. But that would make me fat, and that would make dh unhappy. So I don't. I'm not mad at him for his wanting me to be reasonably in shape. That's his preference and I respect that.

Do you get this yet? Do you really think hidden bitterness and playing the martyr in your own mind is the answer? Wow.

The thing about respect is you take the right and wrong out of it. Regardless of your wife's feelings of the personal morality of the subject, she should just say it bothers her. And you can feel that it is perfectly acceptable. But if you want to have a good marriage, that can be achieved by both of you eliminating the disrespect (on this and all issues), and limiting yourselves to activities and sexual expressions that both of you can be enthusiastic about.


Why should you have to keep your true feelings to yourself? Why can't you just tell her you think there's nothing in the world wrong with it, but you won't do it because you know it bothers her? Doesn't she already know you feel this way, by now?

I never said that anyone should be allowed to do whatever they feel like whenever they feel like it in spite of any real problems it causes. It would be one thing if my wife simply asked me not to do this mostly for her sake because it bothers her but she literally thinks that I should not like porn at all and that I should honestly believe it is completely wrong and because she knows I was viewing it before that already proves there is something wrong with me as if I should really be ashamed of myself.

The decision is yours. If your desire to get your way on this issue is greater than your desire to show love and care for your wife, then continue down the path you are on.

She thinks something is wrong with you. You apparently think something is wrong with her, so it's a push.

Tell me, how is your thinking going to build a better marriage for the two of you?

It isn't.

Use the POJA. Don't do anything unless you BOTH mutually and enthusiastically agree. If she doesn't agree with porn, then you don't use it.

I'm not saying porn is a good idea under the POJA either. But it's pretty clear that she is against it, and if you are practicing MB, then that should be enough to eliminate it from your life.

So the question is still on the table, which is more important, your marriage or getting your way? There does not appear to be a both answer to this particular question.

It appears you have to decide, one or the other.

I'm going to go out on a speculative whim here, but I am guessing that if your attitude toward your wife changed, her disrespectful judgement of how you should feel would disappear.

Can you AT LEAST agree with her that porn harmed your marriage? Can you do that much? I think that would go miles with her. It sounds like you believe that the harm came from her feelings, not your actions, so if you could just straighten that bit out and admit that your chosen (yes, CHOSEN) actions are what hurt your marriage, you could stop DJing her, too!

Well, just tell her then that you think it is okay and are probably not going to change your mind, but that you will refrain from it out of care for her and her feelings. You don't have to change your opinions, and you can express them without criticism. It's up to her then to learn not to be critical.

I already apologized many times and took all the blame and humiliation imaginable for this. I realize that it would be hard for my wife to react any other way than how she did based on her point-of-view so it definitely wasn't such a great idea to push my luck with all the deceit and secrecy in this case.

Grim,

Did you listen to MB radio today? Dr. Harley talked some about porn use. He did mention most men (including himself) enjoy looking at naked women, but that in a marriage it is important for all SF to include your wife.

So then, even Dr. Harley agrees most men enjoy porn, but it is not good for the marriage. Seems like you are hung up on your wife's lack of understanding and her "point of view" about porn.

Why not try Dr. Harley's way?

Grim,

I can't imagine why you should need to take blame and humiliation. That is degrading and doesn't help anything.

I've asked twice now, and it's not rhetorical: why can't you just tell her that you think porn use is okay, but because it bothers her you will not engage in it? And then, if you've committed to that plus transparency, what is the problem? What is making you unhappy at that point? You've both had your say, nobody had to force anyone to change how they felt about anything, so what else is wrong with your marriage? Why can't this be put completely in the past?

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3881

Around minute 7:00:

Dr. Harley advocates that you be completely open and honest with your wife about your feelings, Grim. He said this while sitting right next to Joyce.

It's like an affair. Men and women are wired for it. They enjoy it, and would definitely enjoy it if circumstances allowed it. Men are wired to enjoy looking at the naked female form. No need to lie or be dishonest about that. I enjoyed it as well, and only stopped because I did not like the consequences it was having in my life.

Around minute 8:00:

The next segment is very illuminating as well:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3882

Particularly around minute 4:00.

I didn't hear this one but I have heard him mention the same general idea several times before. I actually have tried out this suggestion that all sexual experiences should supposedly be with your spouse, not because I heard it from Dr. Harley but because of religious guilt-trips. The problem was that I didn't end up having sex more often anyway so after a while it mostly seemed pointless, unnecessary, and harsh.

At this point, I don't know how much it would really help if I suddenly start bugging my wife about sex all the time when she doesn't feel like it plus she is already not nearly as concerned about masturbation as she was about porn. To be honest, I don't have that much interest in hearing expert opinions about what is wrong or right anymore I just want to understand what is likely to produce good results in practice or not and why. For example, how do we know this exclusive SF rule is so important and what will happen if we just ignore this particular idea?

But Marriage Builders is a solution to exactly that problem!


Dr. Harley rarely presents it as right or wrong. He talks about it in terms of whether it is offensive to your spouse or not. I have listened to nearly 1200 hours of Marriage Builders radio and looked at almost every article on this site, and I have yet to see him lay a religious guilt trip on anybody. Have you?


You can always write Dr. Harley and ask that! But a more important question is: how does your wife feel about it? If your wife feels that the rule is important, that probably counts a whole lot more than Dr. Harley's opinion.

If you ignore the rule and get your sexual needs met, then several things will happen:
* you will be less interested in pursuing your wife and meeting her emotional needs
* you will find regular sex less satisfying than you would if it were your only source of satisfaction
* you may offend your wife so terribly that she is no longer interested in meeting your needs
These are just some examples of why this rule is important.

I am hoping that after you posted this you saw that I had posted links where you could go listen to it.

I worry that she would freak out and that it would turn into a major fight if I ever say something like that. Maybe I will have this conversation with her at some point but I don't really want to anytime soon.

Maybe she will, maybe she won't. It sounds like she needs to work on her disrespectful judgments and angry outbursts.

But even if you don't mention it, what is the pressing issue, exactly? If I am reading correctly, you have stopped the sexual behavior that is objectionable to her. So why isn't this issue buried in the past? I have the idea she knows how you feel, you know how she feels -- so why does it even need to be revisited?

I hear you Grim. I gave it all up, and now depend on an un-interested wife as well. I get resentful and angry when she prefers "Desperate Housewives" to spending romantic time with me.

I don't think it is a pressing issue that necessarily needs to be revisited anytime soon if ever; it just irritates me to see my wife's continued judgmental attitude about it. I guess it's like a grudge where something makes you so angry that you are willing to fight over it sometimes even if it clearly isn't in your own best interest and it would be much easier to just let it go and move on.

So she keeps bringing it up, then, even though you have stopped the behavior that is objectionable to her?

Grim, do you have kids? Any daughters? IME, most men are very cool with pornography until the thought of their own daughter being on screen or on a pole getting oogled by random strangers sets them off. I actually know someone who thought strip clubs were fine and harmless places until his daughter went to work in one. I don't know if I've ever seen someone so angry and disgusted before then.

That's something that's different in the way men and women think. I *think* markos would agree with me, and I know he will correct me if I am wrong: men are linear thinkers and proceed through I like this, nobody is immediately harmed, it is pleasurable for me and appears pleasurable for others, so it is good and I will continue. Women are circular thinkers and proceed through I like this, nobody is immediately harmed, it is pleasurable for me, but i wonder about the story of this girl and her family and if her mother would get pleasure from watching her daughter do this and that's kinda gross and now I feel filthy and what if it was my daughter and how can I keep her from going down this road where people that she doesn't even know are watching the most intimate acts she can do and what kind of man am I raising in my son, does he treat women like this, omg i hope my grandchildren aren't being whacked off to by some middle aged greasy man and what is the world coming to...

you get my drift. I know I can't change your mind about porn, but I hope I can at least help you understand that your wife's view on pornography likely has less to do with you than it does with basically the entire human race and generations to come. I think we all enjoy some titillation, but the healthiest among us aren't hedonistic and porn feeds hedonism.