Your anger and upset is natural. There are definitely things you can do to clean that stuff up and plan A him BUT he's still wayward! He isn't telling the truth, he's making you feel crazy for simple requests (like please don't have a flirty interaction with some lady on facebook who enjoys that it bothers me!!) and he pulls away if you try to assert anything that might help you heal.

You are being gaslighted by a master and you're expecting him to be able to lead you out of this mess when he's addicted to manipulating you.

So his first wife was controlling? I bet it was hard for her not to be with such an unreliable, disrespectful partner. There's hope here but you're going to have to take the reigns and let him know what it will take for YOU to stay in the marriage. He's got way too much control here and he is not in a position to be a leader.

I had an EA and I know the crazy thinking that happens. The blaming of the betrayed spouse, the emotional outbursts and the entitlement. You simply cannot let him lead this process because he (like me when I was in my wayward mode) is not rational, not loving and is embroiled in a selfishness that's nearly impossible to understand.

Indiegirl, awesome advice. The more I hear here, the more I realize I have been playing this ineffectively.

Ellie, was he married/separated when you met him? Have you asked his ex-wife if he had affairs?

Part of MB requires you to have firm boundaries with EP's (extraordinary precautions). It means, if he refuses to abide by them, then you are will to separate from him by your own free will. Are you willing to do that?

You see, he knows that no matter what he does, you are so needy that you will always take him back or put up with it. Until you are firm with your boundaries and are willing to say NO MORE to this, then I don't see how you can even consider recovering.

He was divorced when we met. I don't talk to his ex wife now. She is not a nice woman, very sarcastic, mean spirited. When he and I were dating, I met her and she was telling me how he always did what she wanted. She sincerely was trying to tell me how to manage him. She told me how she "allowed" him to have hobbies or friends while they were married and how close their relationship still was.

From his side, all I ever saw was him trying to evade her when we ran into her and the look on his face.. it was pretty clear he didn't want to be around her.

Alis, about the only thing that I have wanted as an EP and have actually told him I wanted, was no more voluntary contact with OW and to please disengage from contact with the facebook girl.

Yes, I allowed myself to get so needy and afraid that I have put up with things. I think he takes advantage of it, but in the last few months, when I have reached a point of getting beyond an outburst and resorted ( which when I say it, sounds weird because I can see I needed to be coming from this head space anyway ) to calm, distant politeness and doing things like saying, I need to step away for a couple of days ( goes to visit family) and I put distance between us, HE begins to step up effort and does it in a way that shows me he WANTS to do it.

I have seen this, but I guess I was being self entitled and weak in some ways, and afraid if I did, he would run off again.

Wrong thinking and it is seeming so obvious now.

Boy I feel dumb. My emotions have been so out of control.

You are in good company. We were all gaslighted before finding MB. My husband told me he wanted to just be friends so I did a major AO and went beserk - my H wanted a platonic relationship!!!
So he told me I didnt love him and he couldnt love anyone who didnt want to be friends with him. To my eternal shame I bought us friendship bracelets when I should have been snooping.....

ellie. Are you going to install a keylogger on his computer and spyware on his phone?

I know you believe that the interaction is small but you do not know this for sure. The only thing you know for sure is that he is comfortable lying to you. Your gut is also warning you about this OW. Always trust your gut.

I think everyone agrees that something does not feel right here. Install the spyware. If nothing turns up then great. We will have a better idea on how to attack this. But if there is an affair, we need to kill that first.

You can't fix the problem until you know exactly what the problem is.

We have a couple of home computers and each one of us have notebooks. I can get the logger on the home computers, not sure about his notebook, since it is one his office gave him. I will attempt it at least.

He has an HTC smartphone. I didn't know you could install spyware on telephones. As far as I know he keeps it locked up tight.

Thinking on, I am quite concerned that you only had one tiny condition for him (unfriend this woman) following his affair. This won't be enough to prevent future affairs and it won't be enough to make you feel safe. I am sure you settled on a tiny condition because you felt needy and without ammo. You felt like you only had one bullet and were saving that for a genuine threat, which you perceive this latest woman to be.

The following is a PROPER list of EPS. Dr H says recovery is impossible without them. Keep them under your hat for now, while snooping, but I would read, think them over and memorize. It will help you stiffen your spine and WH will notice a stronger you.

When things progress a bit furhter, prepare to give him this list:
----------------------------------------------------------------

I want to have a romantic, loving, SAFE marriage and I will NOT stay in a marriage which is not. I am willing to give you an opportunity to earn my forgiveness. In order for the marriage to recover, certain things have to happen. This is what it will take:

1. End all contact with OW for life - send her a letter that we write together and is mailed by me

2. No more nights apart or going out without each other - create a healthy, integrated lifestyle

3. Complete transparency - cell phone passwords, email passwords, finances etc. Swap phones with me whenever I request.

4. No more opposite sex friendships

5. Complete honesty about your affair<s> � passing a polygraph

6. Commit to a program for marital recovery of my choosing. (This is MB)

This is what it will take to keep me in this marriage. You will have to have willingness and enthusiasm to make radical changes in your life if we are going to be married. Your lifestyle must become an open book, holding nothing back from me, as these precautions are to prevent another affair. I love you and have no doubt that you are capable of making amends to me and restoring my trust.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Lots of people add extra conditions to suit their circumstances and I suggest you add getting rid of FB, social networking sites entirely and any online games which could involve interaction with women.

I would add Condition 7: Removal of all personal online accounts to prevent interactions with women online or through online games

We see so many As on here caused by FB because it removes all boundaries. Guys think its ok to chat to a girl after midnight they hardly know on FB, when they wouldn't dream of calling her up.

Some couples have a couples account with both their names on to keep in touch with families and opposite sex friends are banned. Its pretty hard to flirt with FB ladies when your name is Mr and Mrs Ellie, and your profile is a wedding pic etc.

I wouldn't install one on his work computer--at risk of being sued by work, or something. Vets can tell me how thi would work.

Post on the Operation INvestgation forum and you'll get advice on which specific spyware to install on his phone.

Do your best and check out the operation investigate forum for tips. (Anyone with any tips on HTCs????)

If you keep your head low and don't act suspicious, he will make more mistakes, such as chatting to her on the home PC.

I pretended I was not suspicious and my H left his phone unattended for the first time in weeks. With OWs texts on it.

If you dont find anything on the PC though, you will need to verify the notebook and HTC are clean, otherwise you will go mad wondering if you are missing something.

I would get VARs too. If he is getting attached to her he will want to talk on the phone and you might catch a recording of his side of the conversation. hide the VAR in his car or anywhere else he would talk on the phone when alone.

Does he have any unaccounted for time? Does he travel at all?

Ah yes. Keep snooping legal. The marital property is yours, the notebook, prob not.

What does he use to acces the web the most?

He uses his work computer at work the most.
Weekends he spends a lot of time online at home on one of the main PC's.

I think he believes I am kind of dumb. If he is involving himself anywhere, he will be careless enough to contact on weekends from the home computer.

Indiegirl that is a big list of requests to ask him. He is outraged at me asking for what I am asking. I am starting to get the feeling I probably don't really matter that much to him, because I am pretty sure asking for those things will get me told to bug off or he will flat out ignore or debate why it should happen.

Overall, he just is not in the mindframe of taking on that he has to do anything at all.

He doesn't really have unaccounted time. He never travels except with me or for work. Usually a couple of workmates ( men) and him all go together for training purposes to a city elsewhere. He stays in touch, takes a lot of photos. I have never had the sense that he was up to anything while gone.

I hoped so. That is q common with waywards. They get two women on the string and start believing they are superior. (My H, who has a much lower education level than me, became insufferably patronising and insulting) You should read the Art of War in my sig to take full advantage of this as a strength.

One of the main Art of War points is 'When strong appear weak" i.e. when snooping appear dumb. But also "When weak appear strong" Such as you are dying with love for them but you have to say, 'If you dont act faithfully you're out on your azz'.

FYI The enemy is not your husband, but the adultery, which is causing his personality to change.

It is the bare minimum, according to Dr H. he has never seen recovery from anyone who skipped it. But like I said, you have work to do first.



NEVER take the word of a wayward. He's tried living without you and it didnt pan out so well, did it?

If a wayward says/acts you aren't important, its not because its true or how they feel. It's what they want you to believe so they can control you

Even if it were the truth that he is not concerned with being loving - is that the marriage you want? One where you will get left again?

Even if it were the truth it does not mean he will not agree eventually to a new, stronger you. Plan A and Plan B are very persuasive if there is any hope for him at all.

The only cases where waywards dont respond to Plan A or B is because they only want marriages where they are free to cheat.

Just remind yourself--

This is not your H. This is a wayward ALIEN who took the place of your H. You are not snooping against your loving H, but the alien who is determined to have an A.

He responds VERY well to plan a type of behavior from me. Extremely well. When we have a blow out, though and I am the apparant instigator, it takes weeks... like 3-4 weeks before we are able to start getting back to feeling good with each other. This last time it was about 6 weeks and I saw some really wonderful things starting to happen. Then this. And maybe its my fault in a lot of ways. Because I get too close to him and get scared. He really seemed to be trying very hard this time and to my surprise has been way more tolarant.

I think though, if he won't stop this "friendship" he is going to see a lot of distancing from me.

When he started the affair over 2 years ago.. I couldn't believe how he was treating me. I couldn't. There were days I was on the floor in shock and agony.

This girl.. brings it all back to me. I never wanted to feel that way again.

No, no--you getting close to him is scaring him only because he tries in his mind to demonize you. Because he HAS to in order to justify his affair/"friendship"

Of course he responds well to Plan A behavior--minus exposure and the hard parts, it's a cake-eating wayward's dream.

Bump up that lovebank with plenty of needs but remember that plan A is carrot AND stick. The stick element involves snooping, exposure, insisting on conditions and generally standing up for yourself. I wouldnt want to be married to a doormat, nobody does, so dont let him fool you that that is required.



Well yeah. Plan B is pretty distant! Dont give him room to think in Plan A though. Be there. Let him see what he risks losing.



MB will help you keep your options open. It will help you put your all into a great Plan A so you will have no regrets and know you gave your marriage everything when it counted. Insisting on either full conditions or Plan B will protect you from a FR and being left again. Plan B is MASSIVELY healing (Im a Plan Ber for nearly a year) and a divorce hurts much less after a dark Plan B. In fact I quite look forward to mine.

so how long do I go plan A. Once I get the loggers on, how long do I wait to be sure we are in real reconciliation?