You need to snoop for a while, I think. Get evidence that there is an affair. Then expose the affair.

THEN go into Plan A. I think Harley recommends a 6-week Plan A for women due to the hurtful things WHs are capable of, though the vets will probably know better.

I believe it's 2-3 weeks maximum Karmasrose though a plan A can be as short as a few days if it's good.

The main thing is to make sure the BS stays healthy and does not become so anxious in a too-long Plan A she becomes ill and unable to stand her ground and fight the A. The vets will guide you well Ellie.

See, I wondered if it had gotten shortened again. Thanks for correcting me.

The Plans overall last two years. A short period in Plan A and you can Plan B up to two years. Some people set themselves a shorter timescale. I said I wouldn't Plan B more than six months, but I enjoy the peace so much I stayed in it!

You will know you are in a real reconcilliation when you see a 180 degree change in his attitude and he is willing to do ANYTHING to keep you. Hat in hand. The plans motivate him to do that with carrot and stick. All waywards begin truculent, gaslighting and unwilling at the start. Some change, some do not.

We have a thread 'what real remorse looks like' which is helpful and also a False Recovery thread - where waywards kept 'almost' all conditions and used the ones they didnt agree to to have another affair, which you should perhaps check out.

But I would read the Carrot and Stick of Plan A first, and also Exposure 101.

I think it was longer at some point in time but BWs were getting too ill.

Yeah--I knew that at one point the Plan A period was the same or similar for both genders, then it went to 6 weeks for women, and now 2 weeks.

Good to know, so I can remember for the future.

WH calls me this evening saying that he is feeling hopeless.
He is sounding harsh to me. I tried to respond in a positive way, but he is going on and on about how terrible I have made things.

So I say ok. I made them terrible. Hearing him... I am thinking I would gladly work with him on things, but every thing I say, he shoots down. All or nothing. Black or white. I asked him what he thought could be done, a course of action.

NOTHING he says, it's all been tried and every day he expects something bad to happen or he is so frustrated and has lost hope that even the frustration will be gone.

I don't really know what to say. I really feel crushed. Then he says he still wants to talk more on Monday about things.

He calls me honey and darling.

I feel like someone hit me between the eyes.

What does this man WANT. I can't tell. When I say we can work through it, he's all no no no it can never ever ever get better.

I say Ok, and he wants to talk some more and he seems to be indicating no intention at all of leaving or walking off.

I was polite, calm. He was angry and upset. I don't feel intimidated, I just feel baffled.

I was going to start the plan a on Monday, but I guess I did ok tonight, except he doesn't seem to like me very much. Whole time he was in affair, he didn't like me.. but I always felt like I had done a good job as a wife and partner. Now I hear I didn't. Some of the things he talked about.. I was actually doing at the time as he asked me to do. Now he is complaining that I was doing them.

Makes me feel like he doesn't even know who he is talking to.

Want to add, his complaint is that I am causing problems by being unhappy 2-3 days a week and am telling him about or he is seeing me anxious. Then the blow ups (outbursts) I have every 2-3 months are making him want to protect himself from me and the constant upheaval is making him feel hopeless and angry.

What do I do except plan a, and stop the outbursts?

Stop listening and reacting to him. Waywards are nuts and his goal is to make you miserable while he is addicted. Work YOUR plans. Use half an ear when he speaks and use reverse fog babble.

'You are making things terrible by being upset'

'Yes dear, affairs are terribly destructive but we can work past your mistake'

Have you read the 'Never take the word of a wayward' thread.

If he says he loves you, don't believe him.

If he says he hates you, don't believe him.

If he says everything is your fault...you get the idea.

Only believe actions and verifiable proof.

I would stop being upset or angry but don't apologise for having had those reactions.

He knows full well how to have made you happier.

If he brings it up again say: "I am done with all that. I expect you to take the initiative to make this the sort of marriage I want to stay in. Let me know when you are willing to get rid of your FB friend and I may consider my future with you'

Check out Starfish's thread. She is trying to get her H to take a poly and is doing really well in her replies to her husbands gaslighting.

Sometimes helps when others are going through similar things...

He is blaming me so much and then when I offer back, we can think about how to change that or what would you like to do, he is responding, nothing can be done. The best that came of that conversation was "that way of doing things isn't working."

As in the way I, Ellie, wanted to do things in the past.

So I say how would you like to do it now?
And he says, everything has been done and all he is, is alone and isolated with no one to talk to. And I am not "getting it" because he had over a year to do what he wanted. I was trying to talk to him, but I wasn't trying to tell him how to do anything or what he should do or... I could barely get him to TALK to me.

So I don't know why he appears to be blaming ME for it and then tells me nothing can be done or changed, but when I just sort of pull back and go say ok ( because I don't know what else to say. I feel like he is just slapping me down ) he then tries to re-engage and talk. I literally feel like he is asking for something but I don't know what it is. If he doesn't want to work on things, ok. If he feels hopeless, I try to encourage him and he slaps me down, I don't really know what to say.

It's like he wants me, but he wants me to feel hopeless and at the same time he wants me to feel happy and love him and give him what he wants.

But I don't KNOW what he wants and efforts to get him to just say, "This is what I want" are resulting in nothing but a response of "Nothing can be done".

Do you understand how this is going in a circle with no actual concrete action I can take, except THIS: silence and smiling and being NICE as he pulls himself together after I have gotton upset with him for what he has done. It really looks like the only way to actually get results is to do plan a for 4-5 weeks and THEN he is willing to start doing more for me.

Then he is willing to talk, then he is willing to support me more, then he is willing to be tolarant.

I can tell you though, I am feeling disheartened like I never felt it before. I literally feel like I can never do anything at all ever ever ever to resolve this. He seems so caught up in his own sense of victimhood, his own entitlement, his own expectations that I will be happy and charming and nice without ever showing hurt or anxiety or not trusting him.

He was going on and on with "I told you the truth and you won't accept it. So why bother when you won't accept it!"

Well, no I don't easily accept it. I need to see him acting in ways that help me feel like I have The TRUTH. For me that is not being evasive or going and making better friends with someone I feel hurt by. It's staying RIGHT there, present with me, it's asking me what he can do to help me.

I am getting TIRED of the impatience beging directed at me. I amd TRYING. He insists he is too, but I really don't see it.

Sorry, rant over. Will look for the threads you mentioned.

Oh, WAH-WAH.

Your WH is chafing under the very minimal requests you are making regarding this FB friend.

Ellie, please remind me: did your WH answer all of your questions about his affair? What EPs did your WH put in place to keep that from happening again?

He hasnt done anything, mb. He's a fully fledged wayward. Thats why all the 'oh woe is me' drama complaints.

Stop listening to an addict. You won�t hear any sense. . Besides he doesn�t want anything done! Life is sweet with you at home hanging on his every word and OW on FB. He�s getting his crack hit in double doses.


Blimey don�t try to talk to him either. Talking to a wayward is like talking to a drunk. You can�t talk them sober.


He�s drunk. And he doesn�t want anything changed.


He wants you AND the OW. He wants you to back off and give him privacy for his crack habit.


He understands. He has designed the situation to keep you running around in circles.


No, no, no. Maximum three weeks. You will become seriously ill. You already sound very strained and are listening to him way too much. Stick to the MB plans. You can�t Plan A effectively and look all sexy while having a nervous breakdown. We have seen this happen. Plan A has much more effect when it�s short and sweet. He won�t respect someone who hangs around to take abuse.

And he may decide to never change. Be prepared for that.


That�s his problem. You are doing very well and can offer him a great marriage unless he is a total fool.

ok, please bear with my long responses. I am probably venting a lot.

My WH evades answering specifics about the affair. He will play this word game with me.

This is an example:

Last July, we were beginning to talk again. OW finds my email address ( again ) and contacts me telling me about this awesome vacation they were on. I felt, at the time, that he and I were in the possible stages of getting back together again, and he was telling me I could trust him to be honest with me.

I was unsettled by the contact from OW and the vacation thing hurt. So we had this conversation.

Me: are you on vacation?
Him: I am in town.
Me: Ok, but are you on vacation from work?
Him: I am in town
Me: So you are on vacation in town?
Him: I haven't gone anywhere. I am in town.

(at that point, OW calls me up. Faked butt dialed her cell phone, it seems. It is mid morning, he should be at his office. She says something and I hear him say, "huh." So at that point I am mad and I get caught up in trying to get the straight truth)

Me: Ok, OW just called me. What is that about.
Him: *long silence* I don't know.
Me: I heard her say something and I heard you respond. You are not at work.
Him: I am not glued to the office all day, I can leave if I want. (news to me that he would leave mid morning and be hanging with OW)
Me: Are you on vacation?
Him: I am in town.

( at this point I am thinking ffs why am I even talking to this fool. But I feel ANGRY and I hit dial and call back the Butt Dialer. She answers and giggles at me and hangs up. I go off feeling crap and ignore his attempts to talk to me for 2 weeks)

Attempts to get information are generally going like this. He is not outright lying to me, and I am getting sort of a truthful answer or part of an answer. I know when he is doing it and it's really destroying my trust and my capacity to respond in a productive way.

Also when he does tell the truth, I can't even TELL he is. So if I show disbelief, he gets upset and tells me what is the point of telling me the truth when I don't believe it. Then he indicates he may leave again, or he abruptly hangs up, or refuses to respond, disappears until very late in the evening to avoid talking to me before I go to bed.

So I don't even bother asking about the affair very much. OW pestered me a lot during it, mailing me photos of them together and saying things to mess me up. She claimed to be pregnant about 20 times. It really destroyed me in a lot of ways. I listen when he tells his variation of the truth. But I am in such doubt, I question him over and over. He gets very impatient.

At this point, sure, if someone gave me a report about what actually happened, all the ugly details, I would read it. I don't believe asking him for the truth will get me anywhere right now. Even if he IS telling the truth, I just don't believe him. My capacity to believe him is directly linked to how he is treating me. If he tells me something calmly and is patient and kind with my anxiety or doubt, I tend to believe and trust him. If he gets nasty with me, then I just feel more afraid and doubt him more.

So I try to suck it up and everything goes great until I get a stressor about the prior affair, or most often, this facebook girl. And I lose it. All those bad behaviors that are the love busters. Then I am to blame again. It really hurts and feels unfair. Then I have to prove ME to him AGAIN. I am getting weary of it. I really don't feel like going in circles anymore.

I am prepared that he will never change.

We were supposed to talk again tomorrow. The girl is off his facebook, all of her comments are removed and she is not able to post more. I do believe he has contacted her to let her know that I am jealous and he is very sorry I have been hostile to her.

I would also like his apology for disregarding my feelings and humiliating me by writing to her to tell her I am jealous. I know this won't happen.

So my plan should be plan A for 2 weeks. If he wants a response about the complaints he voiced, the isolation he is blaming me for... what do I say? Just that when he is willing to work together on resolving issues, I will be happy to do this, but until then, I can't fix the past or the present without his willingness to talk in a way that is productive in terms of action for his complaints?

Definitley plan A for a short time while, unbeknownst to him to prepare to go to Plan B (financial and logistical things lined up) and then give him a handwritten, romantic Plan B letter (get it edited here before you go into plan B and give it to him).

Then go dark into a Plan B and let 'butt dialer' meet all his needs. Every single one.

She sounds really immmature and also enjoying the competition with you.

Let her have him all to herself for a while at least. Step out of her vortex. Matter of fact, I suggest when you go to Plan B, have a new phone number and the old one gone (no butt dialing satisfaction for whatshername). Anything comes in the mail from her or him? It goes unopened to your intermediary. Intermediary tells WH it was giving, unopened to them and all things go through them.

I think I may need to clarify:

OW is back with her husband and they are in reconcilliation. The butt dialing happened last summer before he and I got back together. As far as I know OW and her husband are working things out. I haven't heard from her since early October.

Current problem is Facebook Girl who lives 1500 miles away in Canada.She is married. She was the friend of WH's guy friend and decided as a result she was also WH's friend. I don't know how much interaction they have really had, aside from her using the lose privacy rules WH had on his facebook. She was commenting through WH's guy friend. At this point all of her posts, etc, access to post, has been removed and she cannot spam WH facebook anymore. I don't know for sure, but he implies he told her I was jealous.

So at this point original OW appears to be out of picture. Facebook Girl is trying to be too friendly and WH sees no reason to be rude to her, because he says she is harmless. He sees my reaction as silly since Facebook Girl is not someone he really wants to be close to. WH wants the freedom to make his own judgement about what is appropriate for him to be doing in terms of his friends. WH is mad because I don't trust him when he says he is trustworthy.

So he now says that this is becoming a battle of wills. I don't see it that way, but he won't listen. He is now blaming me for trying to isolate him and ruin his life. He is scared, he says, that my restrictions on him being friends, however casual, will lead to me being reinforced on my anxiety and paranoia and the infection will spread to me randomly getting mad about half of the planet's population and trying to force him not to have any contact at all with people who are harmless.

Facebook Girl does know I am upset. She mailed me and asked me why I am so upset, because she was just trying to be a friend.

Plan A, then. WH has expressed a lot of unhappiness about all of the focus being on the bad stuff and very little on the good stuff. So for 2 weeks all of the focus is going to be on the good stuff in our relationship. I will re-evaluate on Plan A in a couple of weeks.

I am going to go over to the parts of the board that deal with aspects of building a good relationship and make sure I eliminate lovebusters.

You guys have been fantastic!

You're doing great, Ellie. You're starting to come out of your own fog now. Waywards will make you crazy if you listen to them. They're on their own planet, full of blame and "it will never work."

He's basically asking you on some level to put up with his BS while he casts around for other attachments. You're just supposed to be grateful he still come home at night. It's going to be an incredible shock for him when you assert what it will take for YOU to stay in the marriage.

Plan A for 2 weeks. Continue to snoop. Show him your best and then go very, very dark. This will protect you and help you get to even more clarity about his crazy making ways. Plan B will give you your power back and that is worth more than anything else on the table at this point.

When I was wayward, I would have LOVED it if my spouse could have cut through the fog. Unfortunately, he bought it hook, line and sinker. He didn't know how to be strong in the face of my madness and it dragged things out a bit. You have a better chance, thanks to MB to turn this around and at the very least get your life and your sanity back no matter what your WH chooses.

You're doing great!!

Zibbles, I guess I have been in a fog. At this moment when I hear "we tried everything and it is hopeless!" I feel like disappearing. It's not even hard to think of going plan B, because I feel so hurt at times and blamed at times, that I just want to get away and hide from dealing with him.

I think he will come back at me tomorrow with either telling me straight off that the NC on Facebook Girl isn't going to happen on the basis that it won't help because the real problem is me and he tried, but can't help me because I won't listen to him.

Or, he will wait for me to say something and have his guard up. He's going to be waiting a while, because I am not going to say anything because I will be doing Plan A

Thanks so much for the encouragement, I really have needed it

You are doing very well. Snoop like a bloodhound! The sooner you find something the sooner you can get either a repentant H or the peace of Plan B. Plan B has been amazing for me! I'm so happy and free and I know Ill have a great marriage no matter what someday after all I've learned here about how high my standards need to be.