The "scared" is controlling you right now which is destructive.

Have you considered anti-depressants or anti-anxiety meds?

You have some soul searching to do about what kind of marriage you want and feel you deserve. Decisions (or non-decisions, which are actually decisions) made out of fear are usually the worst ones we make. Like it was said above, your letting your emotions rule you rather than your brain.

Personally, it helped me to consider the worst-case scenario and how I would handle it. Once I determined I could get through that - I was then able to look at things more logically: I DESERVED a man that was faithful - that was committed to me - that would be a great partner. If he was going to be any less than that, it would hurt like crazy, but I was better off.

Incidentally, the WS can usually smell fear a mile away - and know you won't REALLY kick them to the curb; they can get away with anything and know it.

How can we help you toughen up, Hoping?

That IS good news - very good news - but I hope you don't do cartwheels or get all jazzed when WH makes you an offer that low.

Its like going into a car showroom. If you get all happy about the first price offered, that's all you're gonna get.

When weak appear strong. Read the Art of War thread below. You want him but you must act more as though you are on the other side of the equation.

The one who cares least has the most power.

Right now WH is low balling you and offering you crumbs.

Its easy to offer the no female friends thing when he's still keeping secrets from you. They just become another secret.

Its easy to offer MC because usually MC is a waywards dream. A talking shop with no actions required and tonnes of forgiveness. So they just start lying to the MC too.

However he hasn't met SH yet. That is cause for jubilation on your part.

Just don't SHOW it. Low offers get a look and an eyebrow raise.

I have been out for a few days, a much needed "break" so to speak.
Finally feel like I have my head above water though but still struggling with depression and anxiety over my situation.
Next step is to try counseling with Steve Harley.
Question: Does anyone have experience with this? What should I expect for the first phone visit? I looked and it's pretty pricey -- does anyone know if they bill insurance for this?
I would really like to go with Steve Harley though, don't trust other MC from what I've heard on this website.

Hoping,

I counseled with Steve for 5 months. He does NOT accept insurance. It is pricey but helpful. Didn't help us because SWIFF was not willing to work on her end at all.

Between this forum and Steve those are you best chances. I don't think there is anything comparable. Especially no MC!!!

Well I'm glad you think it was helpful. Too bad about the insurance, I wonder why he doesn't accept it. Just such a bummer because our insurance covers counseling, but if the counselor doesn't accept insurance then I think we'll have to pay out of pocket.
So what can I expect for the first appointment?

Maybe you can turn it in to your insurance for reimbursement after you pay SH? Worth a try!
Regardless, it'd be worth whatever price to recover your marriage, divorce is very costly!

indiegirl is doing a good job of coaching you. Remember, don't settle for less than you should or you'll end up with a marital failure. Set your sights high!

Repeated for emphasis. This is just a hunch, but I get the feeling you are flirting with 'plan hope for the M' which is a dangerous game.I don't think you are genuinely asking for first phone call experiences of SH because you'll find out for yourself v soon.

Rather, I think you are asking 'give me some hope to get through the day. Tell me SH works miracles'

Well he doesn't. If your WH wants to be wayward forever, he will.

I would rather hear you work 'plan action for me'

No matter what happens, you will ensure you are safe, happy and well. You don't need to be married that badly.You are giving him the opportunity to be decent husband material and that is enough.

I was doing plan hope when I showed up here.

I found it helped to have a motto to just say over and over again.

'The truth will set you free'

'Feelings follow actions'

'I control my own heart'

'Don't let anyone live in your head rent free'

'Trust but verify'

'Prove yourself to me'

'I am not Bluebeards wife. I will have no locked doors in my world'

Etc

Hey Hoping, wanted to see how you were holding up.

How is your stamina for Plan A going? Any anxiety?

You seem to have gotten all organised and all your ducks in a row, so wondered where you were up to and if there's any news.

Did you make an appointment with Steve Harley?

You are very correct about the "Plan Hope." This shouldn't be how it is, but my mind keeps coming back to it.
Thanks for the mottos, I really need something like that right now to think about. I have a hard time sacrificing now for a brighter future (or marriage). What's overpowering is the pain of the immediate situation but I really need to be able to think of the long term just as much and I have a hard time doing that.

Feeling somewhat better thanks to getting SAA in the mail and am almost done reading it. Dr. Harley does a great job in giving hope that a marriage can be saved, and that's what has helped me feel better, although am still having anxiety and some depression. It's no longer unbearable thank goodness.
Not really doing Plan A so well, due to being so emotional. I have a hard time blocking out the emotion and just using objective judgement. I don't know how anyone can do that in a similar situation.
I sent a request to the Harleys for phone counseling. My husband may have to miss work because Steve Harley just does counseling in the mornings and Jennifer Harley Chalmers does evenings but she is out of town for two weeks. If he doesn't agree to miss work, should I do the counseling for just me? I have an in person counselor at home and the phone counseling was mostly for WH so I don't know if I'll go through with it for just me. We could also make an appointment for later when Jennifer returns from break.
Thanks for checking up on me, it helps to have people watching out for me. How is your Plan B going? Hows life in general?

That's natural. Just be aware of it.



I think on my thread I compared DDay to being told I haad a gangrenous leg _ but that I had to cut it off (plan B) myself, while weeping. Its not easy.What you don't realise is that the leg regrows and one day you are whole again.Either marital or personal recovery does that.


I think you may need Plan B. Get the harleys opinion if you can soon, but there's no point trying to do a plan you can't do because of trauma. You wouldn't run with a bleeding head would you?



Check out my thread! I am such a cheerleader for Plan B as its made me so happy. I could potentially leave the option for WH to return another year, as it can take two - but I seem to have reached a personal recovery. I am trying to rush through the divorce now and am excited about what comes next.

Just keep in mind what SAA teaches, it's a blueprint really, it works as long as both are willing...

OK, I am back from a long excruciating time trying to "figure things out" and get my mental health in check.
Some time has passed so I'm feeling like I've finally crawled out of the abyss and want to do what's right for me and my marriage.

An update:
I am currently in Texas doing Plan A. I think I've been avoiding LB so much though that if I do have to go to Plan B WH is going to be completely blindsided. I feel bad about this. I think I might have to spell out clearly what needs to happen (ie polygraph, enthusiastic marriage recovery plan) and the consequences if this doesn't happen (I can't continue in our marriage) even though this will LB.
Oh and we have an appointment to speak with Steve Harley Monday.
I don't have much hope for this appointment though because WH has shown a half hearted effort towards everything I've suggested. He also complained about the cost and the timing of the appointment. And of course, he refuses a polygraph.
All of this has been really disappointing to me. What I really want him to do is make a spontaneous and enthusiastic effort to win me back without me having to nag him about it. What kind of marriage can I expect if this doesn't happen? A half hearted one at best. I just can't feel good about moving away to be with him and bringing children into this marriage.
Support and advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for all the guidance so far! I've been following starfish's thread and it has inspired me to possibly make the plunge into Plan B.

Sadly, I never mentioned before that there was an incident 3 years ago that should have been a red flag for me. WH kissed one of my friends, she pushed him away, and then she told me what had happened the next morning. I forgave him, believed him when he said he'd never do it again, and then forgot about it. I realize now that the current problem is now a second offense, very serious in my eyes, and I can't cut any corners in my conditions for WH.

Oh yes and WH has been very nice to me since I've been visiting, he clearly is making an effort, in his own way, to win me back. Very little LB for a change. Anyway, this has made it even harder for me to resolve to do Plan B. Sigh.

So glad you're back! I was wondering where you went



Blindsided is what you want! But I dont see why. All you do is enforce a boundary. The letter makes it very clear he has the power to get you back. Its not like you're ending it and blocking all his chances. Plus it's perfectly acceptable to say what you expect, that you will not stay in a M that is not safe, that the M will end if it is not safe, that "this is what it will take to keep me in the M", so if he's blindsided after all that, he simply hasn�t been listening



It just means he's not safe yet. It's early days. You sound like you're doing a great Plan A and Plan A is done with no expectations. Most waywards are downright hostile during Plan A, so his being lacklustre is no real biggie. He may need Plan B to really see what he's going to lose and you will certainly need it if he remains unenthusiastic about making you safe.



Your Plan B is probably going to be q easy to keep dark. If you move back home, and block all contact there's little he can do to break your plan from Texas. Plus you'll have the support of all your family and friends to get you through those first few weeks. The rest of Plan B is amazing. But it has to be dark!!!! Any chinks of light in the form of news, triggers, contact and it is a worthless Plan C instead of being the right stuff.

Absolutely not! A man with terrible boundaries can learn good ones, but he has to really want change.



Since your H is not remorseful, and still controlled by the enemy, you're in Texas as a secret agent, you're doing a Mata Hari, you're Jane Bond!

You meet ENs to lull the enemy over to your side. Each EN weakens evil, each EN is a bit of love potion.

But its supposed to be your tactic to get what you want, not his.

Enjoy the empowerment of Plan A and his reactions if you want, but take all he says with a pinch of salt. Dont let him lull you over to the dark side!

Thanks. I will carry on w plan a and maybe go to plan b when back home. He is a sweet talker but I will try not to let it deposit too many love units.

When it comes to your lovebank, sweet words are counterfeit money, actions and proof are solid gold.

You don't accept fakes! But smile and flutter your lids, anyway Ms Spy.

Establishing boundaries and letting WH know what it takes to remain in marriage is not LB. His "half-hearted attempts" is not a commitment to your marriage and as long as he's half-hearted, you are not in recovery. I see plan B down the road. Don't fear Plan B though, more marriages have been saved in this juncture than in Plan A. Plan A shows him what he could have, Plan B shows him what life will be like w/o you, plus it protects what love you still have for him and saves your sanity. No one is meant to stay in an infidelity-ridden unloving marriage for long term, it's way too hard on us.

Oh, and your husband's "being nice to you" right now is a form of trying to manipulate you into putting up with him in the way he wants to live. Don't let it get to you whether he's nice or not nice. You stick to your plan and don't let his tactics phase you.

Yes, Dr H says plan B is needed more often than not and so I say treat Plan A as how you want to be remembered - completey unwilling to put up with crap plus sweet, loving and totally awesome.

We had our coaching session with Steve Harley on Monday. It went well but he surprised me in saying that he doesn't recommend Plan B in my case. Instead he said that WH needs to learn the concepts of MB and we can go from there. Sigh...
WH showed initiative in picking up and starting to read SAA after the counseling session but will he follow through on this?
Feeling a little lost now in having to depend on WH's willingness to read SAA, fill out LB and EN forms, etc.

Steve Harley said he didn't recommend Plan B because that's for when there is an ongoing infidelity and the betrayed spouse is being "raked over the coals." He thought it would come off as manipulative. I can see his point but am now a bit confused because I really thought Plan B was in store. Steve didn't say anything about the polygraph when I mentioned it.

He probably means you have more slightly more stamina than if an active affair was under your nose. Keep snooping to establish there isnt an active affair however.

He will end up recommending Plan B if your WH doesnt commit to recovery, but I would imagine as Steve's time is expensive, there is no point him wasting that time on mapping out a future until he knows how things are going to go. He probably is concentrating on right now.

You're right to mistrust the form filling, as its actions to safeguard you that really matter; however the info you will get will be invaluable for your Plan A.

What does Steve recommend you do about your job and living situation?