My husband isn't much of a communicator either. You truly have to nail down exacts in this so that there is no wiggle room. I understand exactly where you are coming from in his moving back as it would be much worse than him staying gone to come home just to go through this again!

Having gone through some counseling with SH, your H really ought to know what it is you expect from him already, to some degree. Now he just needs to see that you are serious about sticking with that. You've done a great job to this point of showing that - which can be harder for a BS to do when there's no proof of an illicit A. I commend you HIGHLY for that - esp. being that he's gone down that road before! Now you just have to follow it through.

It's like a game of poker, really, and you have to play this just right. He needs to know you aren't bluffing; that you are going to stick with your terms. Of course, he needs to understand how much this all benefits him as well. If he is truly coming out of the wayward mindset, he should see the beauty in a marriage that is fair, equitable, and extraordinary! He should want a wife who is willing to protect your marriage to the extents you have gone to.

If he waffles at all, he's not ready.

That was actually Pepperband. I'm honoured to be mistaken for the great Pep!

And actually I would recommend your IM stick to email-only and stick to IM type responses. The thread you refer to was not bout an IM it was a BW and she was not in Plan B.


As to the dinner plan.......

VERY VERY DANGEROUS, DON'T DO IT UNLESS the following boxes are ticked.

1) He told your IM, as instructed (rather than simply ignoring your wishes and 'summoning' you directly)

2) He gave your IM a list of the terms he is willing to abide by, so she could see if he is willing to meet them in full BEFORE she tells you about it.

or

3) Your IM instructed him to approach Steve Harley with his list, (so Steve could assess his seriousness) and then SH could advise you on whether to meet for dinner.

If he's simply offering a chat, DON'T GO.

It's very common for waywards who are being Plan B'd to try this ruse and you should never fall into line with that plan.

It would be fine in Plan A, but in Plan B he can't just summon you whenever to discuss the marriage.

oh dear. if he had summoned me, he would have been given the boot. no, he says he has action plan for my conditions. action being the key word. not just "yes, i'll meet her conditions." his words = nothing because he is not trustworthy. action is my mantra today!

my IM just emailed me and reminded me: stick with the plan and keep my eyes on the prize.

sunny - i have no intention of having him home anytime soon, no matter what the action plan is. he has to actually DO IT, and for a while. this time alone has helped me recognise that i have allowed IB and poor treatment to go on for years, and i was the foolish one to teach him that was ok, rather than training him up properly.

indie (sorry, pep!) he presented a very nice invitation with the "yes" so i am prepared to see the plan.

my next appt w/SH is tomorrow morning, and i want to go over the plan with him myself, personally, to make sure i'm on the right track, or whether to say hi the road, jack, and don't'cha come back until you can be a good husband!

i am feeling strong now (meaning this this evening, lol) and am going to stick to my guns. i've come this far, it would be absolutely ridiculous to go backwards now, though i can see how it happens for so many. however, i'm still on track with all my "to-do's" and will not, WILL NOT, change anything until he has proven himself, and at length.

no easy-peasy, i'm back in the house and can resume my old ways. no i'll seduce her and woo my way back in. no i'll demand what *I* want, and she can suck lemons. no, no, no!

i spent a lovely evening last night with the kids, and we had a great day today, too. they left just a bit ago, and i went and had a pedicure. i am ready to do battle!

you give me strength, ladies. here's to the good fight!

Letty, can you post what his action plan is?

Ok so let us know what Steve says about meeting your WH.

Did your IM send you his "action plan"?

a little frustrated this morning: appt with SH did not eventuate. i called at the appt time, left msg, called back in 10, left msg, called back in 10 and left msg asking for him to ring when free and i'd call right back. no call thus far (it's 2 hours after appt time now). he must have had a marital emergency! i certainly don't begrudge someone more desperate than me the time.

dinner went well. i was all dolled up and ready to roll. kept cool, calm, but firm on issues. his action plan:

1. continue counselling so we communicate better and stay on the right path (i, too, have a tough job at this. i don't think i'm the best listener, especially when feeling frustrated).
2. 20 hours UA time weekly
3. EPs:

• complete transparency with phone/computer use. (of course, this will be monitored at all times via DS)

• no contact with any females, which, of course, includes no photography of any females.

• honesty under all conditions - no omitting/saying/avoiding (this will take much practice).

• 20 hours UA time weekly

these things hit all my conditions. lying was our big problem, plus poor boundaries around women via the computer. consistent monitoring will ensure that.

also, and importantly, i got a truly sincere apology for having hurt me so badly with his selfish behaviour. he stated that he was committed to the marriage, not just "trying" to "make it work."

he also said that when we were talking w/SH, he felt backed into a corner and blamed (which, of course, he was), but that the time we had spent together during that time was some of the best times we had ever had. we then discussed the principles, and how they made sense when you could look at them calmly and rationally, not reactive. OMG - i forgot to mention - he read the books! i had put both SAA and HNHN in his bag, and he read them (as evidenced by discussion of principles and how they relate to us). WH is NOT (no, really, NOT) a reader, so this was an astounding piece of evidence for me.

he did not push me about moving back, and told me where he was staying.

i'd really like sunny's input here on transitioning (AFTER i speak w/SH. i want to run this all by him before i take any next step). i think he should have to live on his own for some time yet, but be need meeting, almost like dating (of course, i'll do need meeting too, but SF is off the list for now). but then, i don't know if that's the right thing to do. in the back of my mind we were merging into the D-lane, and so i'm a little immobilized at the moment.

okay, carpet cleaner here, gotta run.

I would say that you need to get SH's input before you allow WH to move back in. It is highly likely that you will be advised to allow him to move back in shortly however, since it is much easier to recover your marriage when you are living in the same house. Separation is BAD for marriage afterall.

Is continued coaching with Steve, or the online course going to be a part of your marital recovery plan? If not, it should be.

Glad the dinner went well!

In my opinion, your husband has shown some action by reading the books and coming up with ways to implement the program.

I would agree that if you can get SH's blessing on his moving home, that would be great! He's the expert, obviously!

I will tell you this much: I got advice (not on here) to make my husband stay on his own for several months minimum, to avoid a false recovery. HOWEVER...I was also advised on here that (just as Scotland mentioned above) being separated is not conducive to recovery efforts.

In my situation, my H moved out in early October and moved home mid to late November. I took the advice to have him move home once I knew he was seriously committed to our future. Believe me, it was hard to know exactly when the right time, esp. when I didn't want our kids going through all that move out business a second time! I would say that after he moved out it was a very short time that he started talking reconciliation. It was probably 2-3 weeks after move out that I was convinced he had met my criteria and would continue to do so - and fully "all in" - and then another 2 weeks to give him time to make amends to the kids and such, allowing them to feel comfortable with him moving home.

We had some great dates before he moved home though. It was kind of like dating again. BUT...I digress.

You will be able to monitor his progress and activities much more easily once he is home - and you will feel more secure. You will also be able to meet each other's needs better.

How about you have him complete some of the questionnaires to show he's doing the work? Perhaps ask for apologies to those he complained about you to.

I'm just trying to think of some ways he can show you remorse and willingness to change...

BUT, again, if you are going to talk with SH, he can advise you best!

yes, true, separation is bad. i don't want it to be a punishment, i just want to see more concrete evidence of his commitment first.

yes on the coaching, but will have to switch to the online programme soon - money an issue.


yes, i want to see more MB-related work, especially HNHN. we led an IB life for so long (both of us); how sad is that? i really had no idea how to be a good, solid couple. and this only supported his bad behaviour.

i am pleased at his move towards recovery and his remorse at causing me additional pain. the apology to others is a good idea. have sent email to see about another appt - i hope it can be soon. i want him home (of course!) but am not keen to jump in head first. will wait pending appt.

thanks, everyone, for your continued support. i never could have made it this far (and further) without you all, and we definitely would have been on the D-road for sure if it hadn't been for you and MB!

oh - had another conversation w/my mother today. she asked if this is what i wanted. i said yes, and reiterated that my goal was always restoration of our marriage. then her hubby got on the phone to say my mother sent me a care package, and inside i would find a VAR! bless him! here's hoping i don't need it!

have DDs feelings to consider as well. she is livid. but i did tell her that if dad pulled his head out of his bum, we would come up for the weekend in a few weeks when i go up for work (this had been our initial plan anyhow - i have to go to her town for work, and H was going to drive up after his work (i'd go on the school bus) and we'd spend the weekend there together). i was thinking that could be our first weekend back together, and w/our DD as a family, but perhaps that is too long. i don't want to undo the good i have done.

Hi Letty,

I hope all goes well with your road to recovery. Obviously I don't have the experience to offer advice, leave that to SH, vets and those further along than me, but I support you and am thinking of you. Reading your thread and the support you have offered me on my thread, you have the strength to do this.

Letty - Just wanted to pop up and say you are AWESOME! Great job doing the MB plan. I'm so glad you have the support you need and that your WH is turning around.

{{{Letty}}}

thank you, happy and ABM, for your comments. every last little bit helps during these trying times, doesn't it? you two made my day today :O)

Did you ever get to talk with Steve H?

not yet. i had an email this morning for a 2pm appt, but it was already 3pm their time. we've got a 6 hour difference. maybe tomorrow. i'll ask them to ring me and wake me up this time, rather than miss the email at 3am!

Good. Keep us posted.

sure will. gotta keep on track, and this board is a great way to do it!

I hope you get to talk to SH soon. I think you will benefit greatly by having him give you clear direction on where to go from here.

Does your H understand that he has had very poor boundaries with women in the past? The IBs must stop as well, but I think he really needs to understand why he can't photograph women, etc... any longer: that it's not just punishment but that he needs to shore up these boundaries.

With my H, he has always liked being the "nice guy" that treats people well, listens, gets along, etc... He has a great heart and likes to help people. However, after our reconciliation he knew he had to keep conversations "professional" with women in the future. At first it was because he thought of it as being a measure to make me feel secure and not worry about the possibility of a future A. He didn't seem to get that it was about HIS stuff, not mine. In the past I didn't care so much about him being friendly. However, it was this exact dynamic that caused him to go down the slippery slope of the A. Boundaries must be shored up because they lead to bad places... not just to please me and/or make me feel good.

There's this misconception (and I believed it for years) that if you have a good relationship, you won't be tempted. It's not true. Of course, having a full love bank with each other does make it less likely that you're going to fall into temptation, but it doesn't make it impervious to infidelity. Loose boundaries can lead to things that drain love blanks, even if just stealing pennies at a time. Next thing you know it, chunks are being withdrawn because some outside source is pulling money out of the account and you don't even realize it until it's too late - like hidden bank fees you may not notice until they've really racked up.

I don't know why but your situation just made me think about this a lot. I guess it's because your H was so concerned about you trying to control him. The comments he made previously to his friends and such showed he was really not wanting to give up his IBs, as well as his resentment towards what SH was telling him. It showed that he didn't truly get the MB program: that it isn't about you making him pay or wanting to control him, but about making your marriage exceptional. The other side of that coin is that not only does the program fill both love banks, but you secure those boundaries to make the marriage as air tight as possible against outside influences.

If this is your H's goal, which he says it is, then he should not be resentful of boundaries and giving up IBs.

The thing is, it takes knowledge of the MB to understand that it's so different from typical marriage stuff that seems punishing rather than mutually beneficial. But... if your H has read the materials, hopefully he gets that now.

I also wanted to address your daughter's feelings, etc...

Sorry - may be coming in a little late on that one. I'm really busy with school work right now and trying to be responsible and limit my time here for now to meet my school/family obligations.

Having a 20 year old daughter myself - along with boys 16 and 18 - I know that you have to manage your family's feelings about the reconciliation as well. (Sidenote: I think it really kicks a$$ that your mom/dad sent you a VAR!) My kids showed they were very wise with it all. They felt my H needed to show true repentance before coming home. They needed to know that not only did he understand his mistakes, but was willing to do whatever it took to change: to understand why he did what he did and to put actions in place that would deter it from happening ever again. They all agreed that there was no more chances after this - that if he failed to be faithful from here on out, the marriage was over.

They felt comforted to know that there was a recovery plan. They instinctively knew what the MB program tells us: just compensation is the best way to "get over" what has happened and that you must put things in place to ensure those two sides of the coin I talked about above. Once they knew that, they were happy that H was coming home.

It's hard with older children: their relationships with your spouse are their own. Your H has to navigate all of that for himself to a large degree. However, once you feel secure in the knowledge that he's on board, your confidence in that will spill over to the rest of your family.

I'll never forget when my brother came to visit, months after H and I reconciled. I was worried about it: my brother is someone I look up to and I know it was hard for H to have to face seeing him after all that was done. They both did a great job. H was humble and my brother was gracious...a real example of what forgiveness looks like. There was no posturing or anything like that.

It sounds like you have a great support system in place and they'll all do just fine as long as H sticks with the program!

I agree!

good morning everyone. went to work yesterday and going back today (it's not holiday time, it's *non-contact* time!) some days i feel more like a secretary than a teacher ::

ok, yesterday i went to my appt w/the lawyer and spoke w/him at length about protecting our assets should it ever come to that. i told him we were reconciling, but that...you know, once bitten. i feel better about that now. i also didn't want to cancel the appt and have him think i'm crazy (make appt, cancel, make appt, cancel)! he was very understanding and supportive. as i said in jennifer's thread, any agreement drawn up needs to go through WHs independent counsel, and agreed to or it's unenforceable.

spoke w/SH this morning at the crack of dawn. got him caught up to date. he is satisfied that WH is prepared to meet conditions, which he is putting in writing, plus NC to FB girl which will include apology for running me down to her. he advised moving WH back in when these things are finished, which will be tomorrow. so i guess he will come home sunday after everything has eventuated.

we also talked at length about incentivising the programme to make it attractive to WH. i need to be a much better listener (and read up on the enemies of conversation) and also we need to role play situations. SH pointed out that in addition to the poor boundaries, WH lies over stupid, ridiculous stuff because it's IB. if we role play similar sitches, he can learn how to change his mental state from the "there's nothing wrong with what i'm doing, i don't get why BW doesn't like it" to "hmm, this feels weird, i'll tell BW about it."

sunny, i think you're right. it's his responsibility to re-establish his relationship w/our DD. not mine. glad to hear that she will come round when they do. i do not want to influence her thoughts/opinions. he will have to work for it, just like he has to w/me.

i'm a little afraid of telling my friends and family that we are reconciling. they are all aware that my commitment is to the M, that was foremost in my conversations w/them, but i think they will be rather surprised that i am actually going to take him back (again). any advice on how to handle comments like, "really? how are you ever going to be able to trust him?" will they be able to have a relationship w/him that won't be strained? or will his behaviour (post PB) make that possible?

i'm feeling a bit resentful that i've just had a 2 week break from work and didn't get any down time. no weekend away. term 2 is so incredibly busy; my calendar is just chock-o-block w/meetings and extra-curricular activities, never mind the teaching part, that i want to cry just looking at it. plus, i'm taking someone else's year 13 class for 3 weeks (thank goodness it'll be doing the same as mine), and having to leave work for the class i would normally have that period, where each student is on an IEP! eeeeeeek! don't *even* ask about marking. i've got a pile as deep as my forearm! deep breaths, i know!