Hi.

We are new to Marriage Building. Our relationship is on the rocks, but we have feelings of love and are committed to making this work.

We have been through the youtube videos and some of the online content. We are waiting for the marriage builder books we have ordered to arrive. We understand the basic concepts though.

Here is a conversation we just had that went badly. I/(we?) need an unbiased assessment of what we did wrong. We'll probably both review the replies.

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Me: How would you feel about me having a little independent time ?

Her: What did you have in mind ?

Me: I need to get out of the house for a bit. I'll go for a cycle.

Her: I have stuff to do and need you to look after our child. We need to have a meeting about what needs to get done, etc.

Me: How would you feel about me getting your mother to look after her ?

Her: <For various reasons> she cannot do it.

Me: How would you feel about me getting a babysitter for her for a bit ?

Her: I don't like someone else looking after our child on the weekend. She should be with us. (We've spent the whole weekend with her, its Sunday a bit after noon and our child should nap in the afternoon.)

Me: How about...

Her: Starts crying. "You hurt me." She acusses me of escalating the issue. She states that we are not negotiating and that I wouldn't take anything other than No for an answer.

I felt that I was negotiating, ie generating ideas, solutions, etc. and that she didn't respond with anything to help us achieve unity on the issue and further shut it down with her emotionality.

So...

This is one of our first attempts to "negotiate" and get to an enthusiastic agreement. I am a bit emotionally frazzled and do need (NEED) to get out of the house. I suggested several alternatives in our conversation, no alternatives were suggested back. My tone was even throughout the conversation. She became terse as it went on.

I am disappointed that we were not able to negotiate something. I felt that I suggested several alternatives to make the situation workable, but that none were suggested back. In effect there was no negotiation, just me asking and her saying No.

Her resulting in tears in this matter is a very regular occurence. I'm not trying to be insensitive, but I feel as though, and I know this is judging, that she uses that as a bargaining tool, both to stop me from doing things and to get her way. I know that I want to make her happy and I certainly didn't want to hurt her, but yet there seemed to me no possiblity of me getting out for an hour of cycling.

And I feel that its something that we should have been able to achieve, one way or another, without hurting her.

Any and all insight and advice on this situation would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Was her statement that I wouldn't take anything but Yes for an answer a form of disrespectful judgement ?

Welcome to MB and Dr Harley's wonderful negotiations! I so wish my XH had been able to negotiate. I think a successful Policy of Joint Agreement is the hardest and also the most revealing thing a couple can do for their relationship.

If I had been your wife and had heard that conversation the way you relay it, I would have felt I was at the dentist. I'm not surprised that she crumbled.

Try something like this;

You (stating a problem) I feel I need to go out and take some exercise. Do you have any suggestions on how I might do that?

Her (stating a problem) I need your help with the baby this afternoon because I have other things to do.

You (proposing a possible solution) How would you feel if I helped with the things and then went out afterwards?

Her (proposing a different solution) How about you take the baby with you?

etc

At the end of the day, if you cannot both enthusiastically agree, you have to go without the exercise. If this happens, it is very important not to be resentful as this would negate the entire process.

Welcome MrMagoo123 to Marriage Builders.

Good job for trying to PJOA.

Just one question so far. Why don't you and your wife go cycle together? You and your wife should be each others favorite Recreational Companions.

Recreational Companionship

She would like me to add that at one point I pointed out that I had generated eight different suggestions and I stated that she had not generated a single one back.

Now she is accusing me of using the program as a stick.

Read these all four letters.

Having Trouble with POJA

Now try these both letters.
Following the Policy of Joint Agreement

Can she come on here and tell her side of the story (have her start her own thread)?

Magoo,

I'm curious as to how you think "independent time" is a part of the MB program?

There is Independent Behavior, but that is a Love Buster, a habit which will wreck your marriage.

I would suggest that you stop, and table negotiations until you two get into the habit of spending 20+ hours of UA time WITHOUT anyone but you and your wife. I would also curb "Independent Time."

Spending time by yourself will not improve your marriage.

To tag onto Triple H's post.

Independent Behavior

I agree with HHH, there is no negotiating for "independent time" when you are in a marriage crisis and are trying to learn the program.

Better to plan a de-stressing session that includes your wife. I heard sex is great for de-stressing.

Have you guys identified IB as one of your major LBs? I know that for us, I was highly sensitive to anything my H suggested that didn't include me, for a very long time. So if one of her complaints is that you IB, I suggest you frame your time to hang out with her as much as possible...eventually she will be comfortable enough in knowing that you like to be with her that she will appreciate short periods of not being together and be enthusiastic about independent activities that don't detract from the marriage.

Now is simply not the time. Have you each filled out the questionnaires?

MrM, welcome to MB. I don't know if this would work for you, but I remember when my DD16 was a baby, and we had a baby seat that would snap onto the back of the bike for bike rides. We would ride somewhere, like for ice cream or whatever, and on the way back, she would fall asleep in her seat on the back of her dad's bike. I can still picture it, her sleeping against his back, or just her head hanging to the side. What a beautiful memory. It made huge deposits for me every time it came to mind.

Just to clarify, I spent 16 hours with her and our daughter on Saturday and another 6 to the point of the argument on Sunday.

I was not looking to circumvent her approval. I don't think that going for a cycle for an hour on a weekend is being "independent". If it is, I think this program has flaws. She is supposed to be concerned about my needs too, right ?

So... the outcome ? I was getting my bike and the bike trailer (for our daughter) ready when my wife restarted the conversation. We agreed to a walk in the local park as a family and had a good time. Then we came home and had a nice dinner.

And then she insisted on watching a LB video and discussing what happened, which turned into a huge fight. Ab out 3 or 4 hours of fighting over aboug 8 sentences of discussion.

I'm sleeping in the basement tonight. Yes, that is withdrawal.

Somewhere along the lines there has to a bit of reasonableness in what a spouse "needs" and there has to be legitimate negotiation.

Something needs to be added to the MB guidelines about emotional regulation too.

There are all kinds of things in MB guidelines about "emotional regulation". The first things that need to be addressed are removal of selfish demands, disrespectful judgements and angry outbursts. All three seem to be at play here with both you and your wife. It is not possible to negotiate to a joint agreement when one spouse is making a selfish demand, being disrespectful or angry. The conversation needs to be safe, with both spouses calm and thinking.

It appears as though you had a legitimate negotiation when you walked in the park and then had a nice dinner. Then you both messed it up - ended up with withdrawal of love bank units instead of deposits.

And, yes, your getting the bike and trailor ready to go do something you knew would make your wife unhappy was independent behavior. It appears as though you "wanted to win" at all costs. Joint agreement results in a win-win situation, never a win-lose situation. It you have some of the MB materials, take a look at the policy of joint agreement and the negotiation skills that accompany it. It takes practice.

And, it you think some of this is somewhat silly - Dr, Harley once advised my H and I to negotiate over who to vote for on-line on the "America's Got Talent" show. Kind of minor right, but the lesson we learned was "Never do anything that is going to make your spouse unhappy". Why would anyone want to?

AM

I think you set yourself up for this problem by framing it as 'independent time'. Why wouldn't you just simply say, "Hey, I thought about going for a bike ride for about an hour. Is that cool with you?"

Going for a bike ride with your spouse enthusiastic about that is NO PROBLEM.

Going for a bike ride when you know your spouse is against it is a huge problem.

You are being silly insisting that you NEED to go on solo bike rides. We address needs here as: what is needed to feel romantic love in a marriage. Think about it...you are showing your wife that what you need is to get away from her. No wonder she is fighting you on that. Instinctively, she must know that distance and absence are bad for marriage.

I did set myself up for this by calling it independent time. You are right.

Update

My wife came down to me in the basement last night. We discussed things and both agreed that we could have done things differently. Then we made love.

She rescued me from withdrawal. It was beautiful. We are very happy with each other this morning. We live to learn and work on our relationship another day.

Yes, you do. Everybody needs to escape, regularly. In a marriage, you need to escape TOGETHER, not apart. Dr. Harley says this regularly. If you escape TOGETHER, you will become each other's best friends and be spectacular lovers.

Raising a child and handling the responsibilities of life is tough work. You need to escape. Together.

Have you checked out the Marriage Builders radio show? Being a daily listener helps me learn a lot of what Dr. Harley has to say about putting this program to work in real life.

Dr. Harley's methods do not oppose some independent recreational activities. But they should only happen when:

1) you are each other's best friends and favorite recreational companions
2) you are following the policy of undivided attention: 15 hours of time alone together each week giving each other your undivided attention, meeting the intimate emotional needs of conversation, recreational companionship, affection, and sexual fulfillment
3) the specific independent activities are agreed to enthusiastically by both husband and wife (e.g., "Yes, I'm fine with you going to see Movie A without me; I don't want to see it and have some other things to do that day; but I don't want you to see Movie B because I don't want us to support the guys who made it." Or whatever.)

The policy of joint agreement: never do ANYTHING without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse.

Essentially, this is literal: anything. If it bothers my wife for me to go eat Chinese food, I don't go eat Chinese food! We find an alternative that she feels enthusiastic about.

A lot of people feel that if their request is "reasonable" their spouse must say yes. What this program teaches is that no matter what reason your spouse says no, RESPECT THAT, because that is part of showing respect for your spouse, which is foundational for building love. If it bothers your wife for you to go ride a bike, don't do it; find something else to do.

How familiar are you with the program?

What you are describing here might be described as Family Commitment time, but Undivided Attention time is a 1+1 scenario; only you and your wife.

Secondly, had you stated that you had spent 16 hours of UA time with your wife over 2 days, it would have to be pointed out that this, also, isn't quite the idea.

UA time should be spent in 3-4 hour blocks through the week, and should be spent outside of the home.


Again, your time is going to be better spent developing your UA time and schedule and avoiding Love Busters, and then moving on to negotiation.

Negotiation is more pleasant between two spouses in a state of intimacy.