And you want your lawyer to drag that RAT over the coals on the stand.

If you want to subpoena the OM, that would be either to appear at a hearing, trial, or a deposition. In my opinion, if he thinks he's going to have to appear at a deposition, that would be your greatest weapon, at first. He will have to give sworn testimony under oath and your attorney will get to ask him pretty much whatever you need to prove your case. It's also transcribed into a written record and can be used at trial to impeach him OR your WW.

If your WW filed first, she controls the process. By you counter filing, you get back some of that control. It won't be the slam dunk divorce she's expecting. She'll get her divorce (unless she wakes up first) but it will cost her. If you subpoena OM to testify at deposition and/or trial, it will throw a grenade into the affair. All of this will delay the divorce and it could get costly. However, the fact that she knows you are wiling to go all in on the divorce will send her the message that you won't just walk away. While you're taking all the legal steps (or your attorney is) you will be Plan A'ing her at the same time. Carrot-Stick.

When she wants to discuss the divorce, you tell her you won't and to have her lawyer contact your lawyer and then, "How bout them Rangers this year?"

Quit threatening and DO.

I emailed lawyer just now to find out what we need to do next.

I need a little clarification on Plan A. Since we are separated I don't have the opportunity to show her any affection such as holding her hand, touching her arm...things like that. Most of the contact is text/email and some phone calls.

So for the Plan A and "wooing" I'm not sure what is not going too far in this situation. When I email/text her are things like calling her pet names or saying "good morning beautiful" within bounds? I feel so stupid asking these questions because I'm a grown man. I KNOW how to "woo" a woman but everything is so critical in this situation I thought I would submit myself to ridicule and ask anyway.

I am trying my best to stay on the "narrow path" as Dr. Harley calls it. I know it has taken me too long to finally commit to that and it may be too late in the game to do so, but I'm gonna try anyway. So any advice anyone has is welcomed.

I also wanted to throw this out there this morning.

The positive and optimistic side of me got to thinking about how things have been since I sent her the letter. She has actually stopped contacting me (which may not be positive or optimistic) like she was before. She pretty much only contacts me about the kids, but when she does contact me there has been laughing and/or talking about things in a pretty light-hearted manner.

So that got me to wondering if maybe she has gone and purchased the book SAA and has been reading it to see what "the program" I alluded to entails. I don't know and to be honest, I do't think she has. But, she has been SO unpredictable in her current state of mind that I don't know what she will do anymore.

Just thought I would throw that out there.

One thing to keep in mind in doing all of this is that it is very expensive. A deposition will cost you around $700 at a minimum.

Do not contact OM. Let your lawyer do the contacting. If you do the contacting then they can turn things around on you and say you're threatening him. It will be your word against his and judges won't want to take thehe chance you're going to put a bullet through his head.

Which brings me to my next point: The most common and effective tactic available to a woman in this process is the false accusation of either abuse, violence, sexual abuse of either her or the kids, or all of the above.

Expect some degree of it once this all begins and keep a recorder on you at all times to protect yourself. The most common mistake men make on this board is to say, "Well, SHE wouldn't do that to me."

Expect it. If it doesn't happen, great. But your goal is to minimize your contact.

Every single email and call to your lawyer gets charged. You'll spend a lot of money for being emotional. We've been through the process and can save you some funds with your questions or help you prepare to maximize your time with your L.

You can stop the process anytime. There is no point of no return in this kind of proceeding.

Of course, you can't control what your wife does, but don't worry about the other stuff. It's just family law. The system doesn't care, ultimately, what you decide.

I'm still on track.

But...it's so hard to think about doing this to her when I talk to her and she's nice and friendly on the phone. She called earlier and we were laughing again about a couple things. When she's like that it makes me ache to think about how I'm about to lay this legal stuff on her.

I know...I'm so hooked on the woman that USED to be and this ain't that woman. It still makes it hard to think of hurting her even though she has pretty much devastated my world.

Like I said though...I'm good and I'm still on track.

I haven't made up my mind yet but right before I tell my lawyer to pull the trigger, I've contemplated emailing or calling WW to ask her one last time if she wants to drop the legal paperwork and try to work on this before we get the lawyers involved that deep.

It might seem simplistic, LFH, but it might help to instill into your consciousness that the woman you once loved is DEAD. Worse, she's dead, but animated like a vampire, sucking you dry of anything good - love, a decent future, finances, family-life!

Get the stake, get the mallet, and do what must be done!

I've contemplated emailing or calling WW to ask her one last time if she wants to drop the legal paperwork and try to work on this

...in effect saying, "Remember that letter I sent with my requirements for trying to reconcile? Just kidding!"

Just curious if anyone has ever described or thought wayward behavior is like someone that is bipolar?

...ever described or thought wayward behavior is like someone that is bipolar...

Ouch! Why would you want to insult those burdened with BPD?

They do share some characteristics, my friend, in the total fixation on the subject's immediate needs and impulses to the exclusion of rational thought. Where the difference resides is in the fact that the BPD sufferer does not "see" his actions as exclusionary; the Wayward just doesn't give a [censored]!

There is also another difference...people with BPD often realize there is a problem, and often work to mend it.

As NG put it, waywards either don't know there's a problem, or they don't give a crap.

So there is "medication" for both.

Prescriptions for the BPD sufferers and carrots and sticks for the waywards?

I'm quoting myself from earlier because I havent gotten much feedback on this topic. I'm having some difficulty keeping the wooing separate from looking desperate. Just looking for opinions. Thanks.

She is so far checked out it's crazy.

She's already changing her mailing address.

lfh, I agree you don't want to look desperate so I wouldn't be phony and I wouldn't lay it on thick. Just be as pleasant as possible when she contacts you.

I guess this is normal for a wayward, but she sure does seem to be in a hurry to get this divorce over with.

As I mentioned earlier .. you NEED to kill your desperation. NOTHING will force your wife to come back .. so you HAVE to accept that fact. As of RIGHT NOW your wife is GONE. HOWEVER .. you DO need to continue to work on YOU .. for YOU and THAT may bring her back to her senses.. along with the advice that ML and the others provide you.

Examples of desperation?

-always giving your wife attention while she is wayward.
-calling all the time to see how shes doing
-taking every opportunity to talk to her
-always available.
-NEVER willing to walk away (NEVER willing to disagree, ALWAYS supplicating).
-etc.

If your doing any of the above .. STOP IT. You will not win your wife with desperation. YOU MUST show SELF RESPECT .. as of right now your wife has NO respect for you and you seem to display a lack of self respect. You encourage her disrespect because you lack SELF RESPECT.

Let me lay out the mind set you should have as a MAN.

There is a KEY to removing your desperation forever. There is no simple 'trick' mind you, that will kill the desperation. It will not be in how you dress or how you talk to your wife. No, the KEY is in how you THINK.

This KEY to killing desperation is to THINK and BELIEVE that you are The Great Catch .. The Prince Charming.

Desperate guys do not do this. They see the woman as the prize rather then themselves. They see that the woman must be 'wooed' rather then them. They will, thus, supplicate and become a 'nice guy'. (i know my username is not doing me any justice at the moment lol)


NOw that your wife is gone and is dead set on not making things work (as you say) ... your too busy for her. Prepare for plan B and plan D possibly. You can always stop the proceedings if it boils out in your favor later. Prince Charming wouldn't accept ANY disrespect from any woman and NEITHER SHOULD YOU.

Now, I know what you're thinking, "I can't act like a Prince Charming or The Great Catch because I am in need of my wife and feel lost with out her and my family unit". Now that may be true but STOP emitting it! This is reversing CAUSE and EFFECT. ASSUME you are the Great Catch, THINK that you are, and as you think you shall become. It becomes a self-fullfilling prophecy. Get some new hobbies (working out .. spending time with the kids etc) and treat them as if they have more value to you than the value you place on your wife FOR RIGHT NOW. When you think you are the Great Catch, you will act like it.

Women love certain traits in guys. By THINKING you are The Great Catch allows you to emit these traits NATURALLY and without any effort.

Examples ..

-Good looks

Does Prince Charming wear raggedy T-shirts? Does the Great Catch walk with his head down? NO! You will wear nice clothes and walk with pride BECAUSE you are proud of yourself. After all, you ARE one of the best. So treat yourself accordingly.

-Humor

Women love humor, I am betting your wife does too. Prince Charming and the Great Catch are humorus because they know that they, themselves, are fun. They don't worry, "My goodness, my wife is totally hot! How can I attract her!?"

ASSUME she will be attracted and have fun in the meantime WITHOUT EXPECTATIONS. When you think you are the Great Catch, this should come more naturally because you have nothing to fear.

-Dominance

You are THE MAN. You must be IN CHARGE, since you currently dont have to POJA with your wife dont worry about your wifes needs FOR NOW, after all .. shes not worrying about yours or how you feel. Desperate guys will try to be 'nice' in every which way to win the girl (and fail, of course as you are experiencing).

When you THINK you are the goods, you realize that it is ridiculous to be in a relationship walking on eggshells all the time. YOU set the rules using MB .. etc, STOP LETTING YOUR WIFE WALK ON YOU. After all, YOU are the prize to be sought and your wife LEFT YOU. HER LOSS! SHOW HER WHAT SHE WILL BE MISSING OUT ON IF SHE DOESNT COME BACK.

Women like to be in the presence of a MAN, not a boy, not a chump, and certainly not a 'desperate nice guy'. ( I should really change my user name haha)

Dominance is also being sure of yourself. Do not speak in a soft tone. Speak STRONGLY and behave STRONGLY. After all, do you think Prince Charming worries about making mistakes? No, so neither should you.

I know, I know. I can hear you saying, "But I must worry about mistakes or else I'll have another 'learning experience' on my hands"

This is a GOOD THING. Let us say that, in a normal conversation, you came across a word you did not know how to pronounce. Most people will utter the word softly for fear of criticism. This is stupid. Say the word LOUD! Let me repeat, say the word LOUD! If you are wrong, you will be corrected. Clearing up mistakes is ALWAYS a good thing and should NEVER be feared.

-Ambition

When you think yourself as The Great Catch, you will feel good about life, you will cease to fear success and demand Life show all that it has. Aim for the moon. If you miss, at least you'll be among the stars.

So in the end, too often men think they need a girlfriend or wife to have their life 'complete'.YES, they are a great addition and help amplify happiness BUT they should NOT be the ONLY reason for your life. The consequence? These men will emit signs of desperation.

Success is achieved first through the mind, then through the world, never the other way around.

Sorry this is long .. but I want to see you in higher spirits and stop being so down on yourself. Hopefully these words of wisdom will help lift you up and give you the strength to fight the good fight with the tools you have here at MB. To be honest its only the past few months that I have really began to use this for myself .. and its TOTALLY TRUE.

Remember .... AS YOU THINK, YOU SHALL BECOME. Get in the mind set above while using the MB tools to your advantage and your wife will see a NEW YOU emerge and may want back what she is missing out on. Continue to be nice to her when the moment is right .. but be FIRM and respect yourself FIRST. DO NOT put up with her disrespect.

MNG

Great post, MNG.

Thanks... It should almost be its own thread ... many BH's probably need it. What do you think?

I agree. Frankly, nobody, male or female, wants a wishy washy squishy squashy pushover of a mate. People respond to someone who HAS self respect WITH respect.

One of my greatest mistakes in M, I think. Meeting many needs yes, but letting myself go from a sassy spitfire to a blithering idiot. This, I realize now, was not in the least attractive and did not help my cause AT ALL.

I also think it good to remind people that meeting someone's EN's is a WIN/WIN. Example PA: be more physical fit, take better care of your health and appearance, feel better about yourself. WIN/WIN. It is like fixing all the things about yourself that are unattractive, it can only help to make YOU feel better too, even if your M doesn't work out.

Sorry for the H/J looking!

MNG you should start this in a thread.