Very nice, Mike, very nice!!!!

I'm someone who gets very emotionally involved with music, so I totally get this.

Try to really set that moment in your memory - with every sense (sight, smell, sound, etc...) so if you have a down moment, you can recall it easily.

1. 16Y Anniversary tomorrow.
2. Kids heading to my mom's for the night.
3. Couple bottles of her fave vino.
4. Single red rose.
5. Japanese food
6. Alone time.

I sent her a text this morning that I made plans for tomorrow for us which is something I never really did. Didnt give her any details.

She said that I have no idea how that makes her feel. Acceptance. Forgivness. Hope. She said she didnt want to get into a long sappy text but just to think that I made an effort to celebrate something so fragile like our marriage is making her tear up.

She didnt care if it was McDonalds and Michelobs on the back deck as long as we are together. (I told her its not hamburgers and beer. She said good, that would not have thrilled her.)

Love bank brimming with good stuff.

Great job, Mike!

It is always a special treat to have your spouse plan something nice as a surprise.

I have a female cousin who I respect a lot. She's my age but has a wealth of wisdom beyond our years. She has a forthrightness I appreciate at the same time is one of the more positive and inspiring people I know. Two things that my wife is a bit jealous of though she;ll never admit it.

She does not know about the A.

My cousin called me to tell me about her husband's serious medical condition and about her daughter's battles with an eating disorder. Two things that shattered an image THAT ONLY I HELD of a 'perfect' life.

After I took my wife to a BnB last year after dday we came home and went straight to my cousins house for a party. My cousin somehow seemed to know something was amiss with me despite being in a good mood. I am 100% sure she does not know about the A, but she took me to the side and was talking about being happy and life. She's really perceptive. I was close to telling her about my issues, but decided not to.

I told my wife that my cousin called and out of nowhere my wife suggested I speak to my cousin about the A. My wife said she knows i respect my couin's thoughts and that maybe she can further inspire our recovery. My wife went on to say that she is comfortable in the fact that she has done everything and will continue to do everything to make our marriage great. She said again the A will not define who she is, but only who she was. If speaking to my cousin, who has an ability to inspire, will make me happy, then my wife said its something i should do.

I told my wife I appreciate what she said, but the fewer people who know the better. Maybe in 5 years, ill be able to matter of factly talk about it. Still too fresh. But, I again learn that my wife is in a good place mentally. Lucky her.

Why do you take the view that "the fewer people who know the better?" (especially when it comes to close family, who can offer their support and wisdom to you)

An excellent question considering my wife suggested I speak to my cousin.

Im embarassed for my wife and me. I still have a lingering feeling of being a moron for letting this happen under my nose. Trying to maintain some pride in a pride-less situation.

I still have what I would say are fairly good friends I havent spoken to in over 18 months for fear they may have heard something thru the grapevine. This solely my issue, I know.

I still may talk to my cousin and open the line of conversation with my long lost friends at some point. We'll see.

I do remember from earlier in your thread you having the issue with friends - I didn't realize it was with family as well.

Here's the thing: getting over your embarrassment is probably something that would help you IMMENSELY in recovery, for all kinds of reasons!

It's perfectly acceptable to not go out and tell the whole world. Although, some people do as they feel that "speaking out" will help others, once they (as a couple) have come to terms with everything.

There's a difference in that though and in harboring shame - which is where you are still at with this aspect. Shame is a very negative emotion which will eat you alive!

I know how embarrassed I first felt with all of this. I think I've mentioned to you that my now 18 year old told the whole dang church youth group - which, I'm sure, made it back to their parents. I used to run into people and wonder what on earth they must think. Finally, I came to grips with the fact that people weren't judging me or even my H, esp. once we'd reconciled. I had a small group of friends IRL that I'd told along with family members. They were all SO much support! When they saw how hard we fought, they talked of how much admiration they had for where we'd been and where we now were.

Mostly, you will find that if you choose to share with people that it will make you closer with them.

I was surprised when I shared with others how much I got back in return. I found people would "reciprocate" even - telling me what had happened in their lives. One friend I'd had for YEARS confided in me that her H was an alcoholic - I would have never known. Another shared her own story of infidelity - and I was able to tell her about MB and really help her out. ALL of these friends have been GREAT to H too.

With my husband, he was able to use the experience to share HNHN with other men and advise them of what NOT to do when they found themselves unhappy in their marriages.

Of course, we have only confided in people who were trustworthy. (Well, except for people who found out through the kids.)

I even came to grips with that: the kids had the right to have support too - after all, it was their truth as well.

I'm going on about this because I feel, Mike, that this could be a real breakthrough issue for you! If you can face this shame and overcome it, I think you will overcome A LOT of the negative feelings you still have. Just my opinion.

Why? Because this shame and "how could I let this happen" is a very root cause of the negativity you still experience.

I've seen books around that talk about overcoming shame, esp. for men. I think it would do you a world of good!

Thank you. No one really has put their finger quite like you did. I have nothing but shame. Hers and mine, I own it all. What's really something is she has little or no shame. She just is. She wont let her history affect her today or tomorrow. I wish I was more like her in that way.

I appreciate the thoughts and, man, you hit the nail on the head. Shame may be just what is holding me back from whatever is next. Shame is what is letting my harbor negativity.

Just had a Dr. Phil moment, seriously.

Ill work on this because despite wanting more of this and more of that, this shame I carry for both us is slowing down the works.

Thanks, I needed that.

mss

Glad I could be of help, Mike.

There's a lot to the shame dynamic, esp. in men - going back to primal days. I won't go into it as it may all seem like psycho-babble which would deter from the MB message. But - I really do think this is what's holding you back!

It might even be worth emailing or calling the radio show to ask if there's a recommendation on dealing with this issue - and to ask how your wife can help you with this.

MSS

Glad to see progress! it is encouraging.

CV

We were talking about that app in iPhone that lets another iPhone or iPad trace it's movements. A friend who doesn't know of the a makes the obvious yet innocent remark that how that would be good to catch cheating spouses.

Sucks when that happens and it will happen again and again.

And maybe it has relevance to the earlier set of posts about shame.

Maybe we should tell this couple and many more about it and thus reduce my shame? That would then eliminate even subtle allusions to infidelity down the road. We'll remove that line of conversation.

Yet shell wear the scarlet letter and I can't have that.

Yet shell wear the scarlet letter and I can't have that.

Balance is everything in recovery, MSS. Taking your marriage and drawing a boundary around it, you should (together) judge which actions will best protect what's inside. A small, and infrequent "ding" to the armor on your side, should be easier to jointly withstand than a massive blow on her side which may result (one friend -> all friends -> entire community).

You withstood that comment. FWW appreciates your strength all the more. Good thing! Move forward!

Getting rid of the shame isn't just about telling others about the A, but in overcoming it so that the innocent "digs" have little effect.

Of course, you SHOULD be able to tell others that will support you and your marriage. It's up to you and your w to determine who that might be.

In my case, it still stings a bit when people make reference to infidelity, but now - H and I just grab each other's hands with a little squeeze. To us it means, "that's in the past; we're so thankful we now have each other and always will." I will admit though, it did take time to get to that place.

It's important to use discernment in this matters. NG is right: balance is key here.

"Find my iPhone" is a free app from Apple that works really well. No stealth or subterfuge needed if your spouse has a bunch of little category menus they file things into and promptly forget about them. Install it, register it, make sure it's turned on in Location Services, and then at any time if you want to see where your spouse is.

For instance, my wife's phone is with her at our house right now. Can see it on a map clear as day with "Find my Iphone".

You may be missing the point. Im not interested in tracking her despite it being real easy nowadays.

I was referring to occasional mention of cheating, infidelity, and what have you among our friends.

Someone had an 'aha' moment when they realized the potential of such a tracking solution.

It will always be one of those uncomfortable moments when the topic of adutery is broached.

Unfortunately, infidelity is all around us. I now realize that. Is it being ultrasensitive to it or was it there all along and we just didn't realize it?

In any case, telling all your friends about the A, will not change the constant media barrage and likewise in regards to infidelity. So, those little dings in the armor will continue to come.

FYI I have that 'shame' too. VERY few people know about H's A, or my RA or anything in between. In my case it is embarrassment for people to know that we have 'that' kind of marriage, and shame for not leaving. Oh well, we'll get there someday perhaps.

There are some good books out there on the subject of "toxic shame" but I would not feel comfortable recommending one that I haven't read myself - which I have not yet done.

Of course, as long as you continue to work the MB program, it will lessen with time and when the subject comes up (as it often does - as UW points out) you will turn to each other in solidarity. I can't say you will feel a sense of pride or accomplishment - that might be reaching a bit - but you at least have a sense of facing it down together. Then, it doesn't affect you so much when it comes up.

We went to dinner at a cousin's house the other night. No one there is in the know of the A except my mother.

My cousin who is the salt of the earth (I think I mentioned her a few weeks ago) was telling a very innocent story of her family friend. This friend called her last week to tell that she saw my cousins husband in her town on 2 occasions this summer getting off the train. They live about 30 minutes from each other and in no way should my cousin's husband be using that train stop.

"I think your husband is having an affair, Ive seen him now 2x getting off the train here. I just HAVE to tell you."

My cousin, "my husband's cancer doctor is in the town and I meet him there for his weekly appointment after work."

"Oh."

Anyway, I guess everyone laughing at how silly the concept of a possible affair was got to my wife. She disappeared for 30 minutes. I found her in the car crying.

She felt stuck with title adulterer and no matter how much she wants it be gone, there is nothing that will erase it. I told her I learned from here that once you stop adultery you are no longer an adulterer.

What was wierd about it was we have been around inuendo and direct talk of affairs and cheating since dday and it was only this time that it got to her.

I do, however, like to see the emotion because sometimes her stoic and even hardened exterior reminds me of someone she USED to be. I didnt tell her this.