I will check his thread, any tips are always good. I had been keeping a journal re children, I will record other information as well. I also have a journal I was using as a healing tool recording, thoughts, feeling and events, this is also dated. Have kept emails, texts etc as well.

Thankyou for your last comment, it was a well timed reminder. Its hard sometimes, its seems like everything we do is laying the foundation for future benefits, its easy to loose sight of that because there is no immediate or short term benefit. I appreciate the positive comment, again its nice to have someone reinforce the positive example I am setting. particularly after DD16's comments yesterday.

Sadly Indiegirl you are right. For me it wasn't just a case of expecting him to do the right thing, I wanted to be fair. When he was meeting our joint payments from the "joint income pool (our rental income & his wage) I was not wanting to claim money, expenses were being covered and I thought it fair he have money for his living expenses.

Now he is defaulting to fund their lifestyle, I have taken a different stance and I am in the process of claiming what I can. Like you mentioned money is his achillies (sp?) heel. I know whatever I can claim will have a huge impact on PEGI. I have sadly learned waywards make terrible decisions regarding family and finances. We have never defaulted on any payments in 20yrs.

Yeah its like that here in the UK. Everything 50/50 and no protection for kids against APs.

My point is that the informal agreement won't really protect your son, either.

If he decides he wants Pegi, around your son, your informal arrangement won't be worth the paper it's not written on.

Just saying that if that is what is stopping you from going after a formal agreement and more money, then that's not the most tactical approach.

The more tactical approach is to realise there is no protection from Pegi, go after the money to starve the A, and get security in place. Still make it clear his being around her is not OK with you, but at the end of the day, he's going to do what he's going to do.

We may envy tougher US laws, but even Peachy, with her amazing lawer had to endure her kid being around OW when she married WH.

It sounds horrendous to me! But I think those are the cards you've been dealt.

NEVER trust a wayward Happy. NEVER. I think you're spot on in letting her calm down. I suggest you send her a text letting her know you would like to talk to her when she is ready and you will try to contact her in a few days. That way she knows you still care.

I wanted to be fair too happy. I have since learned it does not get a BS far, as the wayward often just becomes more wayward. And the BS suffers more. My advice to a newly arrived BS to the boards now would be, secure what you can, even at a WS's expense. You are doing yourself and your children a favour. And potentially, the WS if they ever earn the F.

When I say trust I mean I am hoping he will be a positive influence re education, given DD16 current anger towards me. Thats a good idea sending a text re chatting later, reinforce I care. I did in my last text tell her I loved her and would always be here for her.

Its heartbreaking the negative consequences of an A.

Thats another thing I've sadly learned reading other posts, waywards become more wayward. Pep's post - deception, hardening and destruction was enlightening. I wish I had this knowledge earlier.

He won't unless it benefits him in some way. Waywards brains are just filled with addictive hormones screaming 'me, me, me'. There's no room for other thoughts. Former waywards can't even remember much from the time when they were ruled purely by their pleasure receptors. its not just towards you he will be irresponsible.

And yes, its a waste of time being fair. Dr H says to get as much money as you can before the wayward spends it all on his addiction. If he's ever repentant, you will have saved more marital assets for both of you. If he's highly unrepentant, the most fair thing you can do is let him hit rock bottom.

Happy, don't trust Isildur to do ANYTHING. Pinoke has paid CS faithfully for a year and a half, promised I could always trust him with that - that is the one thing he has done while everything else fell away. Now he has even removed that. He chased our DD16 down in her car, in his huge truck, tried to run her off the road to tell her "what an *&%# b**ch her mother is." His words to me, on the phone, when I asked him what he was thinking and to please leave our daughter alone. This is our little girl, Daddy's little girl, he adored her, would have done anything for her.

That man is gone. Long gone. Isildur will go deeper into the fog, will not care who or what he hurts, even his own children, as long as he can continue to escape and get "high" off his "drug" - the affair. Hard lesson learned for me. If Isidur comes around, then this will be irrelevant.

But in case he does not, I would take any legal precautions you possibly can to protect yourself NOW - because every day you wait is another day deeper into darkness for him. Pinoke is at "destroys." I wish I'd read that sooner too. I see virtually no hope for redemption for him now. I believe in God, and that all things are possible, but it would take monumental effort from Pinoke to change at this point. I don't see that happening without him finally just completely crashing.

Please take care of yourself, don't trust anything from Isildur regarding kids, money - anything. You can't change what you can't change, unfortunately, but take advantage of anything you CAN do to ensure that you and your children will be taken care of.

As far as DD16 goes, perhaps your only option right now (besides keeping up with things at school, stay in contact there) is to forget about her knowing the truth or defending yourself against the enemy. Just focus on reconnecting with her, rebuilding your relationship. Make the time you do spend with her pleasant. If she refuses to talk to you anyway, I'd just take her for ice cream, laugh and joke about things, ask about her friends or interests, tell her funny things about her little brother - anything that could build the relationship with no pressure, no stress, no discussion of the problems at hand. After you do some work to heal this with her, maybe she will begin to trust you and confide in you again. You are a scapegoat. She is hurt, and trusts no one. Dad is all about fun and money, but she knows in her heart her father as he is not does not love or protect her like he should. Just show love, and don't worry about the mom authority unless it pertains to matters of physical safety for her. That's my advice, with 3 teenagers, anyway. Also pretty much what Steve Harley told me to do with my DS17 when Pinoke was taking total control of him. Things are better with him. This works.

If she will not see you, try scheduling visits with her through her friend's mother. Or text her just that you love her (not anything about he behavior). Send her a note, a card, a photo of something at home - anything that could communicate unconditional love to her. Good luck with everything.

Teens are most open to talking when you take walks/hikes.

You walk next to her and let her start conversations.

You might get her to go on them by saying "Its such a nice day for a hike? Wanna go with me on one?"

Sometimes she will say no and sometimes she might say yes.

You could try that approach. Even texting and not expecting a yes a few times.

Plan A her......make invitations to spend time together doing things but have no expectations she will say yes, or appear to appreciate it.

If she does agree and you go, do not bring up family issues or your love for her. Let her. The togetherness will show your love. Just be in the moment.

Yes! Plan A her!

So in a nutshell, waywards apart from sacrificing everything of importance for the A, will continue to act irresponsibly unless it benefits them, its not just a case of foggy behaviour to maintain the A.

Wouldn't life be easy if we could somehow use this selfish me me me attitude to counter their wayward behaviour, almost reverse pyschology.

If only there was a way to make him think he was benefiting from encouraging DD16 to continue with her current education path.

I note your points about fairness. I suppose you have to look at the other side of fairness, it's not fair that waywards sacrifice the family's financial security and spend money on the AP

Thanks Rainy. I think your right its best to just enjoy the time with DD16 and focus on rebuilding our relationship.

Indie's point about wayards being irresponsible unless it benefits them, made me think. I was hoping he would step up and encourage her to continue with her studies and help her b/c he wasn't viewing it as a consequence of his behaviour or interference with the A.

Thanks for sharing about your son and S Harley's advice to you ... much appreciated.

Thanks for the great advice Reading. I sort of lost my compass
last weekend. I suspected the possibility that DD16 may have been using our situation to her benefit and thought Isildur was also taking advantage of the situation. I guess I was tired of my love for my family being used against me. One of those moments where the pain gets to you and you feel like your being punished for everything when they had the A.

Sorry Indie I missed this post.

I am in process of formalising a Separation Agreement which relates to matrimonial property only (custody and contact (access) are separate agreements here). Isildur has been dragging the chain on this one. My lawyer started this process back in March.

Our visitation agreement is informal and unrelated to the Separation Agreement. I cannot prevent PEGI having contact with DS6 and I accept Isildur will do what he wants. I can however prevent PEGI having solo access (without Sildur's presence) to DS6 whilst it is an informal arrangement. As soon as it becomes formal she can have solo access without Isildur being present .... crazy I know. I hate DS6 being exposed to her but I definately want to maintain my right to say NO you cannot spend one on one time with my son.

I think its shameful we can't protect ourselves from AP, that they can exert so much control over our families and finances. Wish we had "alienation of affection" here. Her reaction to being served with these papers would be worth it even without any monetary benefit. It would be nice to be able to put her in her place.

I think starving the A financially makes sense. I think it would have a major impact on PEGI.

Update:

I have been in contact with the Dean of Studies, she has clarified some points and will assist in supporting and encouraging DD16.

Isildur is meeting with DD16 and the Dean of Studies to discuss our daughter's situation and the best possible outcome for her. He appears to be supportive. I am keeping an open mind, but I will not rely on this.

Thank you everyone for your feedback and support.

wait...can't you use his selfishness to your benefit? what if it is pointed out that if DD wants to work full time at her teenage job, where it is very possible to get stuck into doing that until her early 20s, she is likely to need financial support for much longer than you would receive child support? and then a whole 'nother lot of school fees when/if she finally does decide to return?

it's my impression that kids do that, and being a DD, it is possible that she will get pregnant eventually and then be stuck in a dead-end job with no prospects/on the dpb. he certainly can't want that for such a bright girl.

just a stray thought.

Letty, a wayward wouldn't care. Not once they reach the hardening stage.

It would be something else to gleefully blame happy for. Waywards abdicate all responsibilty.

Once they reach "hardening" stage. Sad, sad point. They don't care. Do they ever pull out once they get to that point? What does it take? Or do they wander like that the rest of their lives?

Sorry, Happy, didn't mean to t-jack you. It sounds like you are being proactive and thinking clearly. I'm glad. Your DD is lucky to have you. DS too.

yes, you're right. issy is very hardened. there will be no getting through to him.

Sometimes, they hit rock bottom and are so unhappy, they desperately seek change. Their relationship is unsatisfying and abusive. Their money is gone, they've lost the respect of everyone who counts, they no longer have a good family or home life. Everything they gave up for the A seems to be too big a sacrifice, given that the new relationship is now running aground. With no ENs being met, their drug is gone. Time to either find a new OW or to realise its all a fantasy and give it up.

Dr H says they then often remember the care their spouse offered in Plan A. At the time they were too high to notice much or care. But now, with no ENs being met, they remember the ENs promised to them. Dr H says it starts as quite a selfish process, but with the right rules in place, they can come out of the fog.

There have been other waywards who changed in other ways. Neak once mentioned a WW who was so far gone she invited the OM into her home while her young DDs were napping. But when her BH went wayward in response, she just clean snapped out of it. Being betrayed herself was rock bottom for her and she fought for her marriage like any other BW. But it was too late, as her H went wayward and left for the OW which became an abusive, but long term, relationship.

Some waywards do also just choose to never change, in spite of rock bottom. Its always a choice.

Food for thought, Indie. Thanks for sharing that. Never know, I guess.